Mensuration

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Re: Mensuration

Postby laubdog93 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:43 am

After reading through the mess that happened on facebook I felt that I should throw in my two cents. I feel that there are, and always have been, a ton of tournaments in Iowa. They range from spectacular to ones that you dont need to go play again. But you guys have to remember, as I found out at Am Worlds, other states dont have nearly as many tournaments as we do. On the last day of Worlds I told the guys I was playing with that I was looking forward to going back home and playing another tournament when I got back. They were surprised that I had the opportunity to play another tournament so soon. In most other states there is maybe a tournament a month. Our community of disc golfers is so much better off with so many people willing to run tournaments.

I also think that if you want to get better you need to play as many tournaments as you can. I give that advice to people in the Cyclone Disc Golf Club that want to be contenders for our collegiate teams. Because of this we have a strong top eight that travels at least two times a month. For most of them this is a way to measure up to people that they would otherwise never get to see. This also gives them a reason to put in that extra practice because they are tired of losing to that one guy (....fausch and his god dam 50 foot putts :lol: ).

While I am one of the guys that is probably going to be at every tournament that he can get to, I get why people dont like this format. It does get certain folks burnt out for a while and spreads everyone out. But this also means that there are going to be tournaments that stand out from the others, examples being the Coca Cola Classic and the Newton tournament coming up. I think that this makes it so TD's have to do better than average to make sure that the players will come back again the next time around.

So to finish this up, I think that the amount of tournaments we have is great, theres nothing I would rather do than go play two different tournaments in a weekend.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby Single L » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:09 pm

These Stats Exclude Doubles Events, Legion of Doom,The Challenge. Divisionally Separated Events (i.e. Pros one Day, Ams the next) are counted as one event.

Courses in Iowa: 38% Increase
2006 - 114
2012 - 157

Active PDGA Members in Iowa: 8% Increase
2006: 333
2012: 358

Number of Eventss: 68% Increase
2006 - 19
2006 - 32

Total Number of Entry's - All Events: 16% increase
2006 - 1531
2012 - 1769

Average Number of Players Per Event: 31% Decrease
2006 - 80.58
2012 - 55.28

Average Open Field: 42% Decrease
2006 - 16.95
2012 - 9.87

Average Masters Field: 13% Increase
2006 - 6.08
2012 - 6.89

Average Grand Masters Field: 60% Increase
2006 - 3.00
2012 - 4.80

Average Advanced Field: 25% Decrease
2006 - 21.21
2012 - 15.89

Average Intermediate Field: 6% Decrease
2006 - 18.89
2012 - 17.71

Average Rec Field: 45% Increase
2006 - 7.00
2012 - 10.17

My Short Take:
- Sanctioned tournament growth is not at the same rate as Active Membership growth, thus over saturation of Sanctioned events.
- Declining Top Level (Pro, Adv) field sizes is sue to the over saturation.
- The growth is largely in the Rec and Novice fields, which points to growth in the game.
- Added Rec play might be in part due to more tournaments being offered in their local markets.
- Course Growth means there are new players out there, the rise of Non-Sanctioned events, Weekly's, and Mini-Events tells me they are playing competitive golf, just not PDGA sanctioned golf.
- The non-sanctioned events are winning the battle for the new competitive player.

This is exactly what that PDGA survey was about. How the hell do we get the New Players to play Sanctioned events and Grow Membership. The PDGA is losing the Battle. The game is growing, they are not. Simple as that.
"I'm not impressed with aces of any kind. 95% of the time, they're just bad shots that got lucky and happened to hit the chains. Otherwise, they'd have sailed 50' past the hole." ~ Cydisc
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Re: Mensuration

Postby GDL17921 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:42 pm

Thanks for the analysis Corey. The numbers do not lie.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby AO » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Single L wrote:These Stats Exclude Doubles Events, Legion of Doom,The Challenge. Divisionally Separated Events (i.e. Pros one Day, Ams the next) are counted as one event.

Courses in Iowa: 38% Increase
2006 - 114
2012 - 157

Active PDGA Members in Iowa: 8% Increase
2006: 333
2012: 358

Number of Eventss: 68% Increase
2006 - 19
2006 - 32

Total Number of Entry's - All Events: 16% increase
2006 - 1531
2012 - 1769

Average Number of Players Per Event: 31% Decrease
2006 - 80.58
2012 - 55.28

Average Open Field: 42% Decrease
2006 - 16.95
2012 - 9.87

Average Masters Field: 13% Increase
2006 - 6.08
2012 - 6.89

Average Grand Masters Field: 60% Increase
2006 - 3.00
2012 - 4.80

Average Advanced Field: 25% Decrease
2006 - 21.21
2012 - 15.89

Average Intermediate Field: 6% Decrease
2006 - 18.89
2012 - 17.71

Average Rec Field: 45% Increase
2006 - 7.00
2012 - 10.17

My Short Take:
- Sanctioned tournament growth is not at the same rate as Active Membership growth, thus over saturation of Sanctioned events.
- Declining Top Level (Pro, Adv) field sizes is sue to the over saturation.
- The growth is largely in the Rec and Novice fields, which points to growth in the game.
- Added Rec play might be in part due to more tournaments being offered in their local markets.
- Course Growth means there are new players out there, the rise of Non-Sanctioned events, Weekly's, and Mini-Events tells me they are playing competitive golf, just not PDGA sanctioned golf.
- The non-sanctioned events are winning the battle for the new competitive player.

This is exactly what that PDGA survey was about. How the hell do we get the New Players to play Sanctioned events and Grow Membership. The PDGA is losing the Battle. The game is growing, they are not. Simple as that.


Wow! Very interesting. Take you long?
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Re: Mensuration

Postby GDL17921 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:14 pm

Jake does present an interesting point that I overlooked. It's true, we do have a pretty unique situation here in Iowa/eastern Illinois. I'm sure there are other regions that are close, but how many offer an event EVERY weekend within a 200 mile radius between 4/1 and 9/30? I think that the PDGA could take a look at Iowa's growth as other regions catch up, becuase I believe that they will eventually.

Since the market can't really get any more saturated (no more weekends to work with), I'm hopeful that we'll see more quality events like Atlantic, Legion, Rumble, Challenge, etc. But we also need to start growing new tournament players, to catch our tournament player growth up with the growth of new courses and events.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby IHearChains » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:29 pm

No masters divisions? You want to change things so you can make money off old people?

Hey! Get off my lawn. Ha ha!

Seriously though, not seeing the connection between forcing masters players into other divisions and getting the overall participation up. It seems like there are a lot of players who will be reaching masters age in the near future. You could see that as an opportunity to keep more masters-age players involved in tournaments. Or you could see it as a way to get more donators into the Open field. I'm not sure the latter is going to work.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby IHearChains » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:33 pm

Single L wrote:
Average Masters Field: 13% Increase
2006 - 6.08
2012 - 6.89

Average Grand Masters Field: 60% Increase
2006 - 3.00
2012 - 4.80



Single L wrote:- Course Growth means there are new players out there, the rise of Non-Sanctioned events, Weekly's, and Mini-Events tells me they are playing competitive golf, just not PDGA sanctioned golf.
- The non-sanctioned events are winning the battle for the new competitive player
...How the hell do we get the New Players to play Sanctioned events and Grow Membership.



One suggestion that's been made is to take players from the only divisions that ARE growing, and force those players to play in the divisions that are losing people. That seems like a band-aid approach that is doomed, long-term.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby diskey river » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:35 pm

I think keeping age protected amateur fields makes sense, but I would like to see the Pro field split into 2 ratings based divisions like 970-1000 & 1000+. Just 2 divisions with money on the line.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby Single L » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:50 pm

diskey river wrote:I would like to see the Pro field split into 2 ratings based divisions like 970-1000 & 1000+. Just 2 divisions with money on the line.


I agree to a point. A PdGA Tour and Nationwide Tour if you will. Basically Touring Pros have their own division and the rest have their own developmental cashing division. The problem is our game and finances are not big enough to support this. The only reason purses are what they are at any given event is because of the guys that have no business playing with the top dogs. You take them out and you better find some major funding to make it viable for guys to still be touring pros. Right now I just don't see it.
"I'm not impressed with aces of any kind. 95% of the time, they're just bad shots that got lucky and happened to hit the chains. Otherwise, they'd have sailed 50' past the hole." ~ Cydisc
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Re: Mensuration

Postby Discgo » Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:55 pm

The secondary plastic market makes it possible for players who can't cash in open to at least walk away with a monetary gain. It just requires a little more work after the weekend is over to convert plastic to money. This secondary market is also a factor in the lower amount of open players imo.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby Single L » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:17 pm

Discgo wrote:The secondary plastic market makes it possible for players who can't cash in open to at least walk away with a monetary gain. It just requires a little more work after the weekend is over to convert plastic to money. This secondary market is also a factor in the lower amount of open players imo.


This is the problem IMO. In almost every other competitive sport, game or activity one enters in as an amateur all you get is some sort SWAG for entering, a medal or trophy or medal if you place, and a pat on the back. That's it. Our game saw a way to spur growth by giving the tools to play as a reward with the AM payout. At the time it was a great short term idea, there were and are better ways to grow a game / sport, and now its biting the game in the ass because of the vendor / manufacturer involvement and high entry fees to compete / allow said payout.

Since getting into cycling I have noticed their category system and I really like it. It probably has its flaws, but it seems logical to me and keeps the bagging, prices, and payout in check. Everyone, regardless of skill, has to start as the bottom. After so many points are acquired you are bumped up, then up again, and so on. You are forced to compete, pay, and cash in a certain division. The lowest division has low entry fees and no payout. Then you progress through higher entry fees and payouts that escalate with divisions. Basically you pay, play, and cash solely based on your skill and with competitors of the same skill set. Its pretty simple really.
"I'm not impressed with aces of any kind. 95% of the time, they're just bad shots that got lucky and happened to hit the chains. Otherwise, they'd have sailed 50' past the hole." ~ Cydisc
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Re: Mensuration

Postby Swisher Streets » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:33 pm

Single L wrote:Since getting into cycling I have noticed their category system and I really like it. It probably has its flaws, but it seems logical to me and keeps the bagging, prices, and payout in check. Everyone, regardless of skill, has to start as the bottom. After so many points are acquired you are bumped up, then up again, and so on. You are forced to compete, pay, and cash in a certain division. The lowest division has low entry fees and no payout. Then you progress through higher entry fees and payouts that escalate with divisions. Basically you pay, play, and cash solely based on your skill and with competitors of the same skill set. Its pretty simple really.

What type of system do they use to enforce this? By this I mean what keeps me from competing at the lowest level in Des Moines then traveling to Cedar Rapids and competing in the highest level without working my way up? Nothing to do with this topic, but I was curious.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby IHearChains » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:39 pm

Single L wrote:Since getting into cycling I have noticed their category system and I really like it. It probably has its flaws, but it seems logical to me and keeps the bagging, prices, and payout in check. Everyone, regardless of skill, has to start as the bottom. After so many points are acquired you are bumped up, then up again, and so on. You are forced to compete, pay, and cash in a certain division. The lowest division has low entry fees and no payout. Then you progress through higher entry fees and payouts that escalate with divisions. Basically you pay, play, and cash solely based on your skill and with competitors of the same skill set. Its pretty simple really.


Did you mean, everyone, regardless of age/gender?
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Re: Mensuration

Postby Buzzz Killington » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:25 pm

At the Challenge, we split the ace funds by pool - not by division, due to pools playing different layouts and/or courses. How would you consider it fair to take ace money from two other pools Buzzkill, if you aced hole 1 at Walnut from the shorts and the other two pools played the long tee? IJS


Your point is valid, and a good one to make, though I don't agree fully. The first time I saw a tournament ace was Nikko hitting 450' on a hyzer bomb. His first tournament ace ever. We all played the same hole & pad, but most of us will never even run that ace. Is that fair he gets paid for that and we don't have the chance? Probably not. If aces were fair, they would all stick. As we progress in skill and power, we play the longer pads. Isn't that some sort of leveling device? Pros will always have a better chance at hitting aces: their range is longer, and have more skill. Shorter pads don't mean more ace runs for people of lesser skill. $44 per was disappointing for the 2 of us who aced (from the long pads), to watch and wait for 2 other groups throw off for more money than we got for ACTUALLY acing. I'm happy I aced. I'm happy I got paid at all. Love the Challenge, been playing it since '09. Will be back next year. The more we talk about this stuff is the better we can flesh out the details, to run things better for everyone, which will make more people show.

Also, I hate stringed o.b. :lol:

As far as the pdga vs. unsanctioned goes, I feel that I'm the pdga. Without me, there is no them. That applies to every member. Yet I don't really have a say as to where my fees go. My problem is they provide a lot of support (insurance, ratings, rules, advertising, web content, etc.), but lack the palpable substance that people can grab onto. Blah blah blah, what have they ever done for us? That's the sentiment I hear around here. If we could all afford to go to Georgia, that would be one thing. But if we could, we'd probably all pick up sticks and balls.
Last edited by Buzzz Killington on Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby Buzzz Killington » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:43 pm

More players? Better networking.
Look at Shane Thirtyacre. This was his 4th annual Shueyville event, huge turn out every year. Why? It's not the vending, payouts, level of sanctioning (none), or anything but networking (and maybe beer drinking). He knows the entire town. He knows a lot of Eastern & Southern Iowa/ Illi golfers too. He's not some amazing player, or even TD. MFer is just a stand up guy we can all relate to. People line up to that place because his very first priority is to have fun. You go because you know you'll have a good time too. Is it challenging? Not really. Is it always fair? Ask Doug. Draw top pros? Just Adam. We all go because its a hoot. We still compete because thats who we are. The question I guess is what makes this different than something sanctioned? What does the PDGA, I mean we, really want an event to be?
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