Lost disc clarification

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Lost disc clarification

Postby CalebP » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:54 pm

LOST DISC:

C. If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that
was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.



So ive heard and seen multiples times where someones disc was found (after lunch) and they had 2 strokes removed. Isnt this only referring to a disc that would of been....moved by another player? Not just found?
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Re: Lost disc clarification

Postby Cydisc » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:14 pm

CalebP wrote:LOST DISC:

C. If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that
was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.



So ive heard and seen multiples times where someones disc was found (after lunch) and they had 2 strokes removed. Isnt this only referring to a disc that would of been....moved by another player? Not just found?


This is only if the disc had been hidden or removed intentionally.
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Postby tufluk » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:33 am

A situation arose at a recent tourney.
A deep, OB creek parallels a fairway. A player throws his disc and the group sees it go into the water. The disc cannot be seen in the murky water.
Which rule applies. The OB rule or the lost disc rule, and why? What should then be done?
I'd like to hear from real officials, not the opinion of a sh^thouse lawer like myself. 8)
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Postby GDL17921 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:56 am

OB, especially if it was witnessed by players or a spotter.
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Postby SARG27044 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:57 am

You would normally give the player the benefit of the doubt and mark the disc where it was last seen in bounds. You then throw from that spot with a 1 stroke penalty. However, you are still only allowed 3 min to retrieve your disc regardless of where it is, even if you can see it. Otherwise move on and collect your disc between rounds or after. However if no one saw the disc go OB, it could be considered lost and you would have to re-throw from your previous lie with a penalty. Again, usually groups will give the benefit to the player.
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Postby irban » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:02 am

You also have the choice of rethrowing from the previous lie in an OB situation.
~~~- ¥
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Postby grodney » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:22 am

SARG, you crazy. Or I'm wrong. I'm just too lazy to find out which.
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Postby SARG27044 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:43 am

grodney wrote:SARG, you crazy. Or I'm wrong. I'm just too lazy to find out which.
I might be...why don't you prove me wrong.
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Postby cgkdisc » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:51 am

For the OP, the player who suffered the lost disc penalty only gets 2 throws removed from their score if it was determined that a spectator or player in another group picked up their disc before the group started looking for it so they couldn't have found it. The player who picked up the other player's disc while in play could possibly be dinged with a 2-throw interference penalty. A player's lost disc simply found after the hole was completed does not result in a 2-throw rebate.
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Postby Clue » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:47 pm

I think Sarg is dead on. It's a pretty shady area of the rules. The best precedence I can sight is a ruling Shawn and Juliana made at Lemon Lake Worlds. A girl threw a shot left to right with water on the right. They knew it had to be close to landing in the water, but nobody actually saw it land in the water. It was reasonable to rule out that it was lost on land and seemed more than likely it was in the water which would be OB. The way it was discussed was that it was sort of a proponderance of the evidence sort of thing. If all the evidence pointed to it being OB, then it was reasonable to rule it OB. I can't say this is right or wrong, just precedence.
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Postby grodney » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:30 pm

The IB/OB thing is spelled out in the rules:
"In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds,
there must be reasonable evidence that the
disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds
area. In the absence of such evidence, the
disc will be considered lost and the player will
proceed according to rule 803.11B."

It's up to you to define "reasonable evidence". There really isn't a "benefit of the doubt" for this case, although that was a common phrase back when I played.

But the part of SARG's post I don't like is:
"However, you are still only allowed 3 min to retrieve your disc regardless of where it is, even if you can see it."

That sounds made up. If you think your disc is lost, you can search the 3 minutes to call it lost. Then you either take lost disc, or you convince your group there is reasonable evidence it is OB. But this "3 min to retrieve" is nonsense, right? Especially the "even if you can see it". If your disc is OB, and you can see it, and it's your turn to throw, you have 30 seconds to throw. That's it. If it's not your turn, and it takes the other players 10 minutes to take their turns, is there a rule saying you can't retrieve your disc for those 10 minutes, as long as you're not distracting them?

TLDR: There isn't any rule saying how long you have to retrieve any disc. Is that right?
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Postby cgkdisc » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:02 pm

There's no time limit specified for retrieving a disc but the time(s) you can look must fit within the parameters of the group moving down the fairway and being ready to throw when it's your turn.

The twist I'm not sure about is whether a player should still get 3 minutes if the group agrees the player's throw clearly went OB right after the player threw rather than waiting to walk down and look for it. It would seem like the player must proceed to mark their next lie once the player/group declares the throw OB with no time to look or retrieve the disc until perhaps after the player makes their next throw.

On the other hand, if the player immediately says I'd like to look for the disc for up to 3 minutes to confirm it's not inbounds and likely OB, then I think they get up to 3 minutes for the group to make that confirmation. If the disc is seen in the water before 3 minutes is up, the player must proceed to first make their next throw (unless the disc can simply be grabbed from OB) and hold off retrieving it if it will take some effort.
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Postby Nohr » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:44 am

What if anything changes if the water is casual not OB?
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Postby cgkdisc » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:08 pm

Once a disc is declared OB, there's officially no more time for looking. With casual water, you would get the full 3 minutes to find it so your next lie options could be better defined. If it's not found, you don't get the lost disc penalty if the group determines there's reasonable evidence the disc landed in the casual water (but you just couldn't find/see it). The group makes a judgment where the disc probably landed and then you take your casual relief from there.
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Postby IHearChains » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:44 pm

cgkdisc wrote:If it's not found, you don't get the lost disc penalty if the group determines there's reasonable evidence the disc landed in the casual water (but you just couldn't find/see it). The group makes a judgment where the disc probably landed and then you take your casual relief from there.



This one was news to me. I must have taken quite a few unnecessary penalties for this one over the years.
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