Why I love West Lake (aka par topic)

Postby jack » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:32 am

KePP wrote:How should pro par be determined? Through a meeting of the minds: a discussion held by disc golfers.


But disc golfers are stupid.
Yes, this post was sarcastic.
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Postby K.C. » Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:40 pm

Alright, here I go again...

I think pars SHOULD be determined by the advanced/pro level player, just like they are in ball golf. How many of you have actually shot under par on a ball golf course? I sure as hell haven't, and can rely on taking AT LEAST a double bogey on every hole.

If you look at the PGA tour, you'll see the VERY best ball golfers shooting in the vicinity of -10 to -20 over a four day event, right? Why should disc golf be any different. PAR is goal, birdie is rewarded when you do something very well and capitalize.

Same thing goes for courses. At PGA Championships no one shoots under par...except for Tiger. Whereas people are generally shooting signinficantly lower numbers at the other majors. West Lake is a PGA Championships type of course. Its brutal and very hard to take birdies, because mistakes can significantly cost you. But, if you had a major at Camden...you'd be getting birdie after birdie.

...again, another couple cents of mine. (You're all gettin' rich by my dumb ass.)
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Postby MDR_3000 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:54 pm

K.C. wrote:My bad, I've seen you both have putts for 3's.


On 15? no you didn't. I made a 30 - 35 footer for 4 as Chris missed his 40 - 45 footer for 4.

I still stand by it, though. You should be rewarded with a birdie if you throw two good drives there. You shouldn't be rewarded, like I was, by throwing a bad first shot, and then having two more up-shots to resurrect your birdie opportunity.


to get a 3 on 15 you need to great drives not two good ones. So all the people that played the rumble not one person could string together two good drives?

The only reason you took a 4 on the hole is you foot faulted on your second shot, otherwise you were taking a 5. :D

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Postby MDR_3000 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Here's a question for you...what do you consider a "good drive"?


accurate 300'? 350'? 425'?
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Postby FB32992 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:16 pm

400 accurately and consistent! :D
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Postby KePP » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:42 pm

agreed. A 360' toss that's right on target is pretty solid, too, and doesn't discriminate age & athleticism. But taking disc technology and disc golf growth into consideration, I agree with Fat Boss, 400'.
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Postby MDR_3000 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:03 pm

K.C. wrote:Alright, here I go again...

I think pars SHOULD be determined by the advanced/pro level player, just like they are in ball golf. How many of you have actually shot under par on a ball golf course? I sure as hell haven't, and can rely on taking AT LEAST a double bogey on every hole.

If you look at the PGA tour, you'll see the VERY best ball golfers shooting in the vicinity of -10 to -20 over a four day event, right? Why should disc golf be any different. PAR is goal, birdie is rewarded when you do something very well and capitalize.

Same thing goes for courses. At PGA Championships no one shoots under par...except for Tiger. Whereas people are generally shooting signinficantly lower numbers at the other majors. West Lake is a PGA Championships type of course. Its brutal and very hard to take birdies, because mistakes can significantly cost you. But, if you had a major at Camden...you'd be getting birdie after birdie.

...again, another couple cents of mine. (You're all gettin' rich by my dumb ass.)



You can't compare ball golf and disc golf in that aspect. the reason getting to par is hard in ball golf...putting. Putting is soo much easier in disc golf (even though I can't do it). It's just something you're going to have to accept.
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Postby Steady 26542 » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:40 pm

KePP wrote:A 360' toss that's right on target is pretty solid, too, and doesn't discriminate age & athleticism. But taking disc technology and disc golf growth into consideration, I agree with Fat Boss, 400'.


You young whipper snappers... :lol: I've never thrown a drive even close to 400'. :roll: A good drive for me is 325' and down the middle. A great drive for me is 350' and down the middle.
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Postby KePP » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:03 pm

K.C. wrote:If you look at the PGA tour, you'll see the VERY best ball golfers shooting in the vicinity of -10 to -20 over a four day event, right? Why should disc golf be any different. PAR is goal, birdie is rewarded when you do something very well and capitalize.


Time to crunch some math assuming par at 82: the best shooting this year at the Rumble was Bunnell's 74 followed by a 78. That's -8 and -4. Convert that to an 18-hole score and you get -6 and -3. Double it for a total of four rounds and you get -18... shooting lights out golf.

Last cash in OPEN was Chris Boro with an 86 and 89. That'd be +4 and +7 (again, assuming par 82), which converts to an 18-hole score of +3 and +5 (approx). Doubled for four rounds = +16. That's 16 over in the OPEN division at a SuperTour event getting cash.

And I think there's still room for a bump or two in some of those pars. Mr. Chad says he got 83, I'm guessing he made either 15 or 18 a par 5. I think 15 could easily be a par 5.

Just trying to break down what scores would look like with this hypothetical par being discussed, and to analyze it against K.C.'s comparison to PGA winners having approximately, say, -18. :P
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Postby K.C. » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:15 pm

MDR_3000 wrote:Here's a question for you...what do you consider a "good drive"?
accurate 300'? 350'? 425'?
You can't compare ball golf and disc golf in that aspect. the reason getting to par is hard in ball golf...putting. Putting is soo much easier in disc golf (even though I can't do it). It's just something you're going to have to accept.


Again, I disagree. You and I (well, you MORE than I :lol: ) get frustrated when we miss a 10' - 20', as we consider those more of "gimme's", right? I think I'm just looking at it more in perspective of distance of putting than how difficult it is from the same distance. A ball golfer considers (roughly) 4' - 8' to be putts they SHOULD make, and deserve a stroke penalty for missing. So...double your distances (sometimes triple, as it STILL is much easier to make that distance putt in disc golf than it is in ball), but its the same thing: A deserving stroke swing, one way or the other.

As far as your distance question, I'll keep my argument going for the sake of keeping it going.

#3: 423 ft (uphill) Very hard deuce, but very easy three. I can see someone with a big flick, or big left hand, or even really nasty roller...getting that deuce. They should be rewarded. But, I don't think being able to hit the first set of trees, then throwing a really good upshot/drive should give you a birdie....cuz you didn't play birdie golf. You SAVED your par.

#5: 826 ft (flat, hole lot of obstacles) Throw it 300-350 hyzer, throw it 300-350 hyzer, throw your upshot...you've just made par. However, if you throw it 400 ft and clear the water, then throw it 400 ft. to the landing...you've got yourself a birdie opportunity. That's advanced/pro level golf. I can not do that, but thats because I don't have the arm. But, I see just about every other advanced/pro level golfer with that capability, even if it doesn't happen all that often.

#12: 565 ft (significant downhill) Again, Dave had deuced it, which is sick. This one (like #3) are right on the verge for me...cuz I can see it possibly happen, but doubt it'll happen often. (But, then again, go back to my argument of how hard this course is....it SHOULD be hard to birdie at this caliber of course, we've already got Camden for the "easy" birdies".) But, shank your first shot, and you've still got a legitimate shot at saving your par. Still hard, though.

#13: 870 ft. (flat, obstacles) 300-350 ft. shot, 300-350 ft. shot, up-shot...take your deserved par and be happy. Now, throw it 400, then 400...and don't putt like Mike!!! Wow, GREAT birdie.

#15: 856 ft. Same thing as #13, really. Well deserved par, cuz you played the hole right. Crazy nasty props for takin' a three!

#18: 780 ft. I gave it a par 4 only because in order to three it, you HAVE to have a 400-420 ft. dead center drive to get to the clearing. Not even advanced/pro level players can do this all that consistently, and if so...you deserve a birdie. (Adam Olsen got a well deserved birdie during that playoff.) Otherwise, throw a Roc, throw a Roc, throw a Roc, take your par.

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Postby KePP » Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:42 pm

K.C. wrote:#3: 423 ft (uphill) Very hard deuce, but very easy three. I can see someone with a big flick, or big left hand, or even really nasty roller...getting that deuce. They should be rewarded. But, I don't think being able to hit the first set of trees, then throwing a really good upshot/drive should give you a birdie....cuz you didn't play birdie golf. You SAVED your par.

You seem to think this is an easy green. There's a big fat oak tree in the middle of this 25' opening with a low branch that kills putt opportunities at the basket that's tucked back like 50', surrounded by OB parking lot and thick rough. I think the OB and rough makes going for it a very ballsy risk/reward. The reward would be a TOUGH putt for eagle. Its not like if you hit that opening you have a wide open putt for deuce. Most people with an arm like that can't putt anyways. I would be interested in seeing how many 2's and 3's were taken on hole 3 in this years Rumble. If the answer was 0 deuces, would you change your mind?

K.C. wrote:Crazy nasty props for takin' a three!

Sounds like the description of an eagle.
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Postby MDR_3000 » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:44 am

K.C. wrote:
#13: 870 ft. (flat, obstacles) 300-350 ft. shot, 300-350 ft. shot, up-shot...take your deserved par and be happy. Now, throw it 400, then 400...and don't putt like Mike!!! Wow, GREAT birdie.


#18: 780 ft. I gave it a par 4 only because in order to three it, you HAVE to have a 400-420 ft. dead center drive to get to the clearing. Not even advanced/pro level players can do this all that consistently, and if so...you deserve a birdie. (Adam Olsen got a well deserved birdie during that playoff.) Otherwise, throw a Roc, throw a Roc, throw a Roc, take your par.


so a 70' for birdie?


next time we play west lake, you play hole 18 with just your roc and I want to see what kind of score you get.


I'll get into this more, I have to get to work now....
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Postby K.C. » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:48 am

Yeah, I don't even know if I agree with myself anymore...but I'm enjoying arguing it.
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Postby K.C. » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:18 am

Alright, so after all this fun stuff, lets go back (and maybe I can change my mind, I’m open to being wrong…I usually am).

1: This is a solid par 3. Deuces happen, congrats…but its not easy.
2: Par 3.
3: 3 or 4? I guess if you give it a 4, then taking a 2 is REALLY rewarded, but taking a 3 is still rewarded? Hmmm…I’ll cave. Par 4.
4: Par 3. (Very under-rated hole, in my opinion…I love it.)
5: 4 or 5? Did Chase take an “eagle” during the Rumble? Was it THAT well played? Maybe so…but I still believe it’s a very hard 4. I still think that if you play this hole smart…and don’t get risky, you SHOULD end up with a 4, and be happy to take par.
6 - 11: Par 3.
12: 3 or 4 or 5? You’re right, but I hate admitting it. You deserve an eagle putt if you can drive that basket. That really is sick, and I envy all of you who can! But, it is NOT a par 5. That’s just dumb.
13: 4 or 5? I still think it’s a par 4. You’re driving down-hill off the tee, and even I’m getting (ball-park) 400’ on a good drive, take or give a few. Then, as much as it LOOKS intimidating, you need to throw another drive 370’ to be parked, right? That’s a par 4. (Is #6 at Eastern a par 4? That’s gotta be in that ball-park of distance…)
14: Tough par 3.
15: 4 or 5? I’ll cave on this one, too. Cuz Mike (as much as I hate to say this) deserves an Eagle to 3 it. Par 5.
16: Par 3.
17: Par 3.
18: 4 or 5? Along with #5, toughest par 4 on the course. Not a par 5. Adam made that 3 look easy, too easy. Can I do that? No way, but I think I’ll 3 it out there sooner or later. If I can 3 it, its not a par 5.
19: Par 3.
20: Par 4, and a beauty.
21: We’ve been forgetting this one. I’d like to retract my initial thoughts on it, cuz I don’t think its deucable without a HUGE putt or up-shot. Par 4.
22: Par 3.
23: Par 3.
24: Par 4.

What’s my new math?:
    Front 12: Par 39
    Back 12: Par 44
    West Lake Par: 83


I’m cool with that.
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Postby batlord » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:21 am

Ok, what if you did this (just a suggestion)?

Assume you are an Advanced golfer - not a brilliant average golfer, but cashign in the intermediate division regularly and sometimes in the advanced field. Say your controlled "good" drive (not crushing) is 350'. You can also make a good portion of putts inside 40 ft. Base par on that. This does change a lot of holes' pars though.

So do the start and finish of each hole and then fill in the gap.

Hole #3
- 350 ft drive - ONE stroke
- >40ft putt, but <350 drive - ONE stroke
- putt - ONE stroke.
This means hole #3 would be a par 3.


Hole #5
- 350 ft drive - ONE stroke
- 350 ft drive (700 so far) - ONE stroke
- >40 ft putt, but <350 drive - ONE stroke
- putt - ONE stroke.
This means hole #3 would be a par 4 if you're being consistent.

This also means there isn't a legit par 5 on the course unless we had a 1050ft+ hole.

Think about it. (And chime in. )
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