Why I love West Lake (aka par topic)

Why I love West Lake (aka par topic)

Postby KePP » Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:25 am

West Lake is FAIR golf that rewards good shots and demands great decision-making all the way from the first minute to the third hour. Each hole is an adventure of consecutive shots to position yourself to get up and down on the difficult greens. Rather than having one specific line that you either park or you don't, you have a series of optimal landing zones for setting up subsequent shots according to your strengths. At the end, the score separation reflects who made good shots and who didn't.

Best holes:
18 - double tunnel
5 - The dam
21 - extra long downhill anny
13 - The dam
23 - absolutely beautiful along the lake
12 - long downhill open anny
19 - H2O

Here's my scorecard from Sunday. I was able to stay even through 12, but as always the backside delivered a beating. I didn't really "fall apart" or anything, its just easy to let some holes get away from ya. A couple of times a missed putt changed a 4 to a 6. Its near impossible to get through this course without blowing a few holes... always room for improvement that keeps ya coming back.

3 3 4 3 4 2 3 3 2 3 2 4
5 4 6 3 3 6 5 6 6 4 5 4 = 93 (+21) 0 lost discs

I think actual par is 82. What do you think? (3 3 4 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 3 4 3 3 4 3 4 4 3 3 4)
Last edited by KePP on Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby ghstinshll » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:18 am

What, only one par 5? LOL
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Postby IHearChains » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:24 am

I think actual par is 82. What do you think? (3 3 4 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 3 4 3 3 4 3 4 4 3 3 4)



3 3 4 3 5 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 3 5 3 3 4 3 4 4 3 3 4


IMO a couple of those 4's should be par 5, when it would pretty much take a miracle (for me at least) to reach the green in 2 shots. Seriously if somebody reaches 5 or 15's greens in two shots shouldn't they deserve two putts for birdie, or one putt for eagle?

Last year after the first Rumble there were spreadsheet stats posted for all the holes, but I couldn't find them on the board.

BTW...even after 12...nice!
0 lost discs, at WL that is a pleasant surprise!
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Postby batlord » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:51 am

I've got the spread sheets more or less done. I just haven't done anything with them yet. Plus there are stats for three courses, so it's going to take some time to format these so you can read them.
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Re: Why I love West Lake

Postby K.C. » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:51 am

KePP wrote:I think actual par is 82. What do you think? (3 3 4 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 3 4 3 3 4 3 4 4 3 3 4)


3 3 3 3 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 4 3 4 3 3 4 3 4 3 3 3 4

- I think par is 78
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Postby MDR_3000 » Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:52 pm

KC thinks par out at Camden is 36.
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Postby KePP » Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:59 pm

Pars that have been disputed so far:

Hole three = par 3 or 4
Shouldn't a hole be deuce-able to be a par 3? So no one ever gets a birdie here? I wonder if this hole has even been deuced yet. I know I'm not the only one whose really happy with some sort of putt for three (usually a low liner under the huge branch).

Hole five = par 4 or 5
First throw past the walls, second throw along the shoreline, jump putt to the basket. Par 4.

Hole twelve = par 3 or 4
First throw past the group of trees, second throw to the green. TOUGH par 3 or a realistic par 4. Again, shouldn't a hole be deuce-able to be par 3?

Hole thirteen = par 4 or 5
First throw before the walls, second throw past walls, third throw approaching difficult green, fourth tough putt for birdie. Shouldn't three great drives and a tough putt be rewarded with at least a birdie? Not to mention the water risk on every single shot.

Hole fifteen = par 4 or 5
First throw past the backstop, second throw approach the road, third throw approach the green. Par 4.5

Hole twenty-one = par 3 or 4
First throw out to the hill, second throw to the corner, third throw approach/jump putt. I like par 4 because par 3 says you HAVE to go for it on your second throw just to maintain par.


^ btw I'm not saying I can do any of this. I'm talking about good golfers. And my comments are just friendly debate... I am in no way qualified to set official pars on a golf course. Oh and K.C. - YFC!
Last edited by KePP on Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby covey » Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:53 pm

Sign pars should be set for the AVERAGE golfer not the advanced semi pro crowd. Most of of you beasts don't play ever play "signs" anyway. Everything is a par 3 anyway right.;)

The intent of the par system is merely to make scoring in your head easy. It doesn't determine your ability as a golfer. Kinda of like a lot of golfers not wanting to play longs because "they can't go for there lowest score" or "it will wreck my average". Par is just there for scoring and should just reflect an average player on a decent round.

So calling hole 5 a par 4 kinda wrecks the system and so on for the rest of them.
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Postby Steady 26542 » Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:05 pm

MDR_3000 wrote:KC thinks par out at Camden is 36.


Not with the new #6. He thinks Camden is a par 37... :lol:
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Postby K.C. » Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:40 am

KePP wrote:Hole three = par 3 or 4
Shouldn't a hole be deuce-able to be a par 3?

- Absolutely. Its not an EASY three, by any means, but its also not a 4. (yes, I've taken a 4 two out of three times I've played it, but thats cuz I suck)

KePP wrote:Hole five = par 4 or 5
[i]First throw past the walls, second throw along the shoreline, jump putt to the basket. Par 4.

No doubt about it. People are taking 3's, and THAT is a birdie. You darn well earn that birdie. But, taking a 4 is what you "should" take, so long as you play it well. (I don't think I've shot under a 5 here, but thats my own fault.)

KePP wrote:Hole twelve = par 3 or 4
First throw past the group of trees, second throw to the green. TOUGH par 3 Again, shouldn't a hole be deuce-able to be par 3?

Yes, yes it should be. Talk to Mr. Arango and Mr. Tony Phillips, they've both deuced it. Dave has done it twice, I guess. SICK!!!!

KePP wrote:Hole thirteen = par 4 or 5
First throw before the walls, second throw past walls, third throw approaching difficult green, fourth tough putt for birdie. Shouldn't three great drives and a tough putt be rewarded with at least a birdie? Not to mention the water risk on every single shot.

Well, the way I look at it is this: I've SEEN Mike and Sprague three it with ONE putter a piece. Then, on Saturday, Eng...Mike...and myself ALL took 4's, and we were in NO WAY playing good golf. Its a 4.

KePP wrote:Hole fifteen = par 4 or 5
First throw past the backstop, second throw approach the road, third throw approach the green. Par 4.5

Mike has 3'd it a few times, and I'm pretty sure a few others did during the Rumble. And, again...Mike, Eng, and I all 4'd it on Saturday. We're not super-studs, but we're not schmucks either (well, maybe we are, but oh well). If it is a legitimate par 5, then all three people on the card shouldn't be lowering their scores. ESPECIALLY not us three!

KePP wrote:Hole twenty = par 3 or 4
First throw up the middle, second throw up the middle, third throw approach the green.

Wait, I thought I agreed that 20 is a par 4. I believe that its just too tough for an advanced level player to get there in three. He/she might do it once or twice and get drastically rewarded for it, but if you take a 4 there, you should be happy.

KePP wrote:Oh and K.C. - YFC!

Well, it might be a little strict, but not crazy!! I'm trying to look at every hole as if I'm playing THAT hole. (not as if I just played that hole) There is a shot, maybe another shot, an upshot, and a putt. Par is the goal. Birdie is a bonus. If you do everything right, you're awarded. If you err, you can still make par.
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Postby KePP » Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:45 am

K.C. wrote:
KePP wrote:Hole three = par 3 or 4
Shouldn't a hole be deuce-able to be a par 3?

- Absolutely. Its not an EASY three, by any means, but its also not a 4. (yes, I've taken a 4 two out of three times I've played it, but thats cuz I suck)

Are you indirectly saying that people deuce this hole?

K.C. wrote:
KePP wrote:Hole twelve = par 3 or 4
First throw past the group of trees, second throw to the green. TOUGH par 3 Again, shouldn't a hole be deuce-able to be par 3?

Yes, yes it should be. Talk to Mr. Arango and Mr. Tony Phillips, they've both deuced it. Dave has done it twice, I guess. SICK!!!!

Deuce as in 50 ft putt? Or deuce as in 150' approach that dropped in? And if its the first one, how? Big anny?

K.C. wrote:
KePP wrote:Hole thirteen = par 4 or 5
First throw before the walls, second throw past walls, third throw approaching difficult green, fourth tough putt for birdie. Shouldn't three great drives and a tough putt be rewarded with at least a birdie? Not to mention the water risk on every single shot.

Well, the way I look at it is this: I've SEEN Mike and Sprague three it with ONE putter a piece. Then, on Saturday, Eng...Mike...and myself ALL took 4's, and we were in NO WAY playing good golf. Its a 4.

This one is debatable. So Mike and Sprague threw their putters to the wall, to the basket, and putted it in on their third throw? Dayum! I can buy this one as a par 4 since a bad drive can still get you a 4.

K.C. wrote:
KePP wrote:Hole fifteen = par 4 or 5
First throw past the backstop, second throw approach the road, third throw approach the green. Par 4.5

Mike has 3'd it a few times, and I'm pretty sure a few others did during the Rumble. And, again...Mike, Eng, and I all 4'd it on Saturday. We're not super-studs, but we're not schmucks either (well, maybe we are, but oh well). If it is a legitimate par 5, then all three people on the card shouldn't be lowering their scores. ESPECIALLY not us three!

Ya'll are or have been OPEN players, so I dunno if I buy the "especially not us three", but I can agree its a 4.

K.C. wrote:
KePP wrote:Hole twenty = par 3 or 4
First throw up the middle, second throw up the middle, third throw approach the green.

Wait, I thought I agreed that 20 is a par 4. I believe that its just too tough for an advanced level player to get there in three. He/she might do it once or twice and get drastically rewarded for it, but if you take a 4 there, you should be happy.

Whoops meant hole 21. Edited original post and argued for 21 to be par 4.

K.C. wrote:
KePP wrote:Oh and K.C. - YFC!

If you err, you can still make par.

Hole 3?
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Postby IHearChains » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:18 pm

Well, the way I look at it is this: I've SEEN Mike and Sprague three it with ONE putter a piece.



I saw somebody ace hole 10 the other day. Therefore it is a par 1.
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Postby Steady 26542 » Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:56 pm

Does anyone like the idea of determining par from what the average 1000 rated player does there? Eng has the results from the tourney. You could look at what the open field shot on each hole paying close attention to the 1000 rated players. Of course wind conditions will also play into it but the round rating could also be taken into account.

I believe I heard that a 1000 rated round at Eastern used to be 5 or 6 down. So, should a 1000 rated round at WL be even or +6 or -4 or what? You can decide what you want par to be by the round rating. Personally, I think a round of even par should be rated around 950. Just my $0.02 worth.
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Postby K.C. » Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:35 pm

IHearChains wrote:
Well, the way I look at it is this: I've SEEN Mike and Sprague three it with ONE putter a piece.



I saw somebody ace hole 10 the other day. Therefore it is a par 1.


Lance, stop being a d-bag. Lets look at at least a few different ways you skewed that argument to look like an a55.

1. By argument alone, and NOT by how I feel about the hole: You say that my argument is that a hole was shot with three strokes, therefore…I called it a par 4. Then, you go on to say that if you saw a hole shot in one stroke…I would call it a par 1? Do the math, buddy. And no…I wouldn’t call hole 10 a par 2 (or 1 for the mathematically disadvantaged, or just simply Lance), getting an ace on any hole deserves a two stroke swing (besides Nims, where you could make the argument that it IS, in fact, par 36.)
2. By leaving out the rest of my point, you failed to remember that I also said a couple others (myself included) shot the hole with 4 strokes. Two players getting 3’s with putters, three players taking basic fours = par 4. If you play the hole correctly, you should take a 4. If you play it well, you have a chance at a 3. That is golf.
3. The argument was made with putters in mind, making it a tougher challenge than using drivers, obviously. (Did you somehow forget that the normal disc golfer usually can’t throw a putter as far as a driver?) If two people can get a three on a hole with one disc a piece (putters, mind you), AND three of us….
- Wait, you tried to skip that point again, didn’t you?
4. What WAS your point, anyway, that my par count is off? Believe me, I don’t care, you can have different opinion than me…I won’t even hold it against you. I might challenge it, but to each their own. But, when you make (yet another) attempt at some kind of jab at my opinion…at LEAST have a point.

Stop being a d-bag.
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Postby batlord » Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:39 pm

I'm going to chime in, even though I probably shouldn't at this point. I can't remember who said it, but people are talking about putting pars on holes other than tournament par (i.e. recreational player pars). The old school of thought in many cases is shown by the PDGA course description:

<300 = par 3
300-400 = par 4
>400 = par 5

Adjustments can be made for open/narrow holes if needed.

Is there any reason to sway from this system? If you want to get recreational players hooked on the game. Let them shoot under par (by the signs). Pros will play the course as all 3's - we know this. And if you tell them a hole is a par 5, and they three it, then they'll argue that it's not a par 5 hole. Why put it up for discussion?

Another point. If you tell someone that the first 18 holes at West Lake have the same rec par as Camden, then they are going to assume it's a similar course in difficulty. Obviously, this is not the case.

The PDGA publishes a document on public pars http://www.pdga.com/documents/PublicPar.pdf just for this reason. So in effect, the question should be do you put different pars on different tees, like is common in ball golf? Probably.

The difficulty in looking at scores from this year's rumble are that only advanced and pros played the course. They did play from the longs so that helps.

See if this changes your mind - If a rec player throws 200-250 ft, then your pars are going to be considerably different than you guys have suggested. I understand people have dueced hole 12, but that doesn't mean it's a par 3 hole. It's just not. Take a rec player out and throw a round with them and see what kind of scores you get. I think you'll be surprised. again, think 200-250 throws and not always accurate. Keep up this discussion though. I'm not trying to shoot anyone down. I've got all the pars written down somewhere, I just don't know where they're at right now. And I don't even think they're right on the scorecard that's on the web. I could be wrong though. The more chatter the better in this case. I do appreciate everyone's input, yes, even K.C.'s.
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