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Postby irban » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:55 am

How do you feel about torture?
~~~- ¥
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Postby actifed » Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:23 pm

irban wrote:How do you feel about torture?


I'm not a big Britteny Spears fan.
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Postby grodney » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:45 am

irban wrote:How do you feel about torture?


Well, it has less collateral damage death/injury/suffering than, say, war.
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Postby irban » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:58 am

grodney wrote:
irban wrote:How do you feel about torture?


Well, it has less collateral damage death/injury/suffering than, say, war.

Does it?
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Postby grodney » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:47 am

irban wrote:
grodney wrote:
irban wrote:How do you feel about torture?


Well, it has less collateral damage death/injury/suffering than, say, war.

Does it?


Well, true, you wouldn't know by the way war is portrayed in the U.S.

While we're on the subject of idiocy, please tell me I was having a nightmare when our lawmakers actually spent time to draft and pass a resolution denouncing a newspaper ad. A freaking NEWSPAPER AD. Please?
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Postby irban » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:50 am

I know. Both sides of the aisle got caught up in that.
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Postby rightcunnin » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:56 am

grodney wrote:
irban wrote:How do you feel about torture?


Well, it has less collateral damage death/injury/suffering than, say, war.


Aren't injury/suffering inheirant(sp?) in torture?

What newspaper ad?
I'm sorry that the middle of my sentence interrupted the beginning of yours.
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Postby grodney » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:24 am

rightcunnin wrote:
grodney wrote:
irban wrote:How do you feel about torture?


Well, it has less collateral damage death/injury/suffering than, say, war.


Aren't injury/suffering inheirant(sp?) in torture?

What newspaper ad?


Yes, but they are *more* inherent in war. At least in torture, you're only impacting one person, and there's a pretty good chance he's got it coming (well, that's debatable). With war, you're impacting thousands that 100% do *not* have it coming. Collateral damage.

The newspaper ad was a few weeks ago. My summary, which may be too simplified: moveon.org took out a full page ad in [some big paper, New York Times?], calling Gen. Petraeus "General Betray Us". Big hubub follows. The US Congress (was it both House and Senate?) passed a resolution to condemn the ad.

Here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoveOn.org_ad_controversy

I know that shouldn't be a surprise, given all the crap that goes on in Washington. But it's just a slap-in-the-face reminder of how f'ed up the U.S. is when it comes to politics.
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Postby Single L » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:45 am

I love Politics and my Dad always told me............

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"I'm not impressed with aces of any kind. 95% of the time, they're just bad shots that got lucky and happened to hit the chains. Otherwise, they'd have sailed 50' past the hole." ~ Cydisc
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Postby irban » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:58 pm

grodney wrote:
irban wrote:How do you feel about torture?


Well, it has less collateral damage death/injury/suffering than, say, war.

Many argue that intelligence gathered from torture is not reliable, which would mean that at best there is no gain from using torture over conventional interrogation techniques, and may even hinder an effort with false leads.

I would say that regardless of the quality of the intelligence, a civilized nation should never stoop to torture. Torture falls well below the minimum standard of decency that should be applied to all living beings.

The greater good argument is a slippery slope. They garnered a lot of interesting data about human physiology in the concentration camps, but even if they had cured cancer, no one could attempt to try to justify their methods.

You could try to argue that the people being tortured would to do the same to us. Disregard that there are documented instances of false imprisonment, and with the current level of oversight and disclosure, we may never know how many. Instead, think how we are stooping to the level of our attackers, disregarding our own rule of law (even capital punishment is subject to cruel and unusual punishment standards), losing the moral highground and world opinion in the process.

Someone from the administration said something like, 'If I have to choose between the safety of our nation and the Constitution, I'll pick the safety of our nation'. Others reply, 'The Constitution is our nation'.
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Postby O_D » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:39 pm

Have you guys seen any of "The War" on IPTV. Awesome footage of WWII, gives you an interesting persepective of war back then (and its justified support) and war today. It looks like its on IPTV every Wednesday at 8:00 until Nov 14th.
Heres the link:
http://www.iptv.org/series.cfm/18941

I'm not saying what we're doing is justified, just pointing out a pretty cool show with real footage from another time.


Haven't seen any support of Gore's Nobel Prize....thank freakin God he won, I don't know what we would do without his powerpoint and invention of the internet. Seriously though, why not give the award to the people who did the research in the first place. I now have less respect for anyone who has won....OK maybe a few have deserved it.
Calmer than you are.
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Postby KePP » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:29 pm

PowerPoint is weak
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Postby irban » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:56 am

The Peace prize is awarded based on the impact someone has had. The researchers are awarded the science prizes. Gore has had a major role driving public awareness of global climate issues, no small feat in the current context of corporate influenced pseudo-science obfuscation.

Think if Gore had taken office after he won in 02. Besides having a head start on climate issues, we would not be in Iraq, we would not be fighting for our Constitution, and we would not be even discussing torture, no pre-emptive war, no Abu Ghraib, no Gitmo, no extraordinary rendition, no warrant-less wiretapping, no signing statements, no arrogance.

Hell, we may have even avoided 9-11. Gore would not have had to make a big show of disregarding all existing initiatives, and might have heeded some of the warnings about Al Quaida. If 9-11 had occurred, we would likely have a global coalition of countries fighting it together. We would probably have captured bin Laden by now. We would still have international respect for our policies and standards of justice and decency. Think how much easier diplomacy would be with an intelligent, moral President and a vice-president who isn’t a sociopath.

The remaining 30% of red-staters, who haven’t scraped off their W stickers in shame, know all of this. Whenever Gore’s name comes up, they knee jerk a disparaging barrage of sound bites and punditry into the ether, in hopes of distracting us from the basic fact that they put their money on the wrong horse. They fell for all of the bullshit. Gore is like a slap in the face reminder of what could have been, contrasted with the shameful reality of what is.

It’s long past time to man up and admit the wrong. Quit bowing to the propaganda machine. Start to hold all of our leaders accountable, demand transparency. And retain Constitutional standards, because that is the best way to limit death, suffering and injustice in the long run.
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Postby GDL17921 » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:17 am

^^best post I've read in a long time.
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Postby rightcunnin » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:33 am

Amen FRZBDAD
I'm sorry that the middle of my sentence interrupted the beginning of yours.
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