PDGA?

All Tournaments held in the state of Iowa or by Iowa affilitated clubs.

PDGA?

Postby AO » Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:09 pm

I just wanted to voice my opinion about how some of Iowa's tournements have been so poorly ran. Whether it is mixing divisions, turning people away from events because "we are full", weak payout, no online pre-registration, and chaos and conflict between clubs. I am expecting a negative reaction from this but I do not care. It needs to be said and I guess I am "giving a negative vibe to disc golf and not leading it in the right direction.......mmmmaaaaaaannnnnnn." There is no way this can or should be called the Pro Disc Golf Association, more like the ADGA. Many have to be in Madrid by 8 AM or have the chance to be turned away. Hopefully I am turned away by a 840 rated Am because it has rained to much, they need to take away a few holes and they need to minimize the field because "I did not get there in time to sign up." This may insult a few but the only smoothe and well run events in Iowa has been the Legion of Doom and Iron Lion Disc Golf Safari, which is not even considered an Iowa event. I am ready so fire away!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by AO on Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GDL17921 » Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:28 pm

This has been a crazy year, and I'm not pardoning anybody, but the number of players playing tournaments this year compared to the last several has grown greatly and maybe some weren't as prepared as maybe they could've/should've. I think that we'll see better run tournaments in the future, becuase there will be more, and people will start picking and choosing the better run tourneys by who's running them and the reputation they have. This will, hopefully, in the long run, cause TD's to start competing for players/fields, which will, in turn mean better run tourneys (in your opinion, hopefully) for all. It's just what I see in the crystal ball, hopefully I'm right. I kinda understand where you (as a pro) are coming from, I hope things get better in your eyes. I'd hate to see you quit coming around.
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Postby Chase20460 » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:54 am

I agree with alot of whats being said from both of you. I hope there really isnt alot of competition between tourneys, but it is going to happen. I do feel the PDGA needs to tighten up its sanctioning agreements and TDs should never give up Pro spots for an Am player. But, at the same time, as Jay pointed out, the fields have exploded this year, and most are Am players.

I thank you for the compliment, AO, but I understand how it can turn crappy fast for TDs, as if it werent for help I would have been there. Suggestions and help before, during and after saved us several times. I still feel alot wasnt done, but we got lucky. Its easy to sign up and sanction a PDGA event, probably too easy, but running events that will bring people back and satisfy the majority are hard work.

IMO, weak payouts are basically the fault of the TD or Club running the event. Some feel thier work is worth more than it is, some dont want to work enough. If the field is large enough, most involved are happy.

I think any time your trying to run a Tour series, you run the chance of having an event or 2 that dont work to full desire. Thats really not that bad if theres 8-10 events though, and youd hope to use those as stepping stones.

As far as the PDGA goes, I think it really depends what your in the PDGA for. Im in it for ratings and money ( I know. More ratings than money for awhile. ) so Im on the lookout for tourneys that cater to me. I have bought into their system of having to travel and compete to raise a rating that doesnt really matter to anyone but myself. I think that in order for the PDGA to exist is has to cater to Am players. Am players make the events for TDs and Clubs. Pros dont buy plastic very often, and most are still living off CTPs and Am stacks for years to come. I subscribe to the "Cash brings Pros, Pros bring Ams, Ams like buying plastic" theroy in business and as a TD. As a player it shifts to "Cash brings Pros, Pros bring ratings, even if I play shitty- my round will still be higher".

Until there is more intrest from "Corporate sponsors" and thier involvement and hope for a large scale events, Pros are pretty much forced to sign up beforehand. When you get the larger sponsors that bring larger purses, the events have a chance at major growth in alot shorter amount of time than the previous 4-5 years, if ever. It forces the places that want those events to be able to hold the players on multiple courses at the same time. If your town doesnt have at least 3-4 tournament courses, your SOL. If you start having events at 5K-10K a pop the Pro field will be the FIRST to fill, and the numbers could match the Am field, which makes it all worthwhile. The TDs make out and the sponsors bring in touring players that are going to force the level of play.
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Postby The Donator » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:39 am

Best thread ever.
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PDGA?

Postby AO » Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:24 am

Sorry about the 840 rated AM player thing, I was just worked up a bit. It does not matter which division you would lose a spot to I think it is just the idea of being turned away after driving 2.5 hours which concerns me.
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Postby GDL17921 » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:13 am

I totally understand that frustration. I played a round with Tank at Ewing the day he was on his way home from getting turned away in Ottumwa, a tourney in which the TD played. That was bogus. Hindsight is 20/20, but if I had been the TD, I would've relished the idea of NOT playing in lue of recommending a round at Waterworks (DSM) to a pro (or anybody) that drove 3.5 hours.
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Postby Chase20460 » Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:29 am

GDL17921 wrote: Hindsight is 20/20, but if I had been the TD, I would've relished the idea of NOT playing in lue of recommending a round at Waterworks (DSM) to a pro (or anybody) that drove 3.5 hours.



And you would have been totally correct.
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Postby shane » Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:57 pm

Before you come on an insult every tourney in Iowa except two you should run one yourself.

If you pre register (Madrid's been posted for at least 6 months) you don't have that to worry about getting there. Why should anyone hold a spot for you if you can't help them and pre register.

Bad payouts? when your entry is 35$ and theres 12 people in your division money comes out for ace funds, PDGA, and a donations to courses, clubs or even EDGE. You know raising money to grow the sport. Oh and look at the payout chart and see how deep you have to pay.

As far as Iowa Tour events, they make money that goes into a grant that Iowa schools only are allowed to draw from to incorporate discgolf into a curriclium(?) for the youth of Iowa.

As far as the Legion not being an Iowa event, its one of Iowa's best events. It wasn't an Iowa tour event because Doug didn't want to make everyone pay two bucks for EDGE. Which is fine, but the only reason for the Iowa Tour is to raise money for EDGE. Do you see the conflict of intrest?

Just to rip on you for a moment I'll remember at the next tourney that its all about you. You don't have to pre reg, hell don't even check in but if you could just let us know who you would like to play with and if the course is full we'll even kick a few players (830 rated) out so everyone plays within their own field. If you could though drop off your entry fee at lunch. Heck the TDS wife will even make you up some sandwiches between checking your cards and posting your next round.

I'm waiting
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Postby Mount » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:51 am

rotflmao

Shane that last paragraph there is some funny poop. Way to stand up for your Iowa Tour. :lol:
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Re: PDGA?

Postby Clue » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:38 am

AO wrote: There is no way this can or should be called the Pro Disc Golf Association, more like the ADGA.

This is something that has been discussed nationally and you may not be far off. I do however need to correct you on the rest of your post.

Believe me that I have at times felt exactly like you do, but it's really only a sense of entitlement and it's way off base. Essentially tournaments are nothing more than a small business venture and they need customers. Disc golfers are great customers because they usually show up no matter how bad the service and the product is. But what you need to realize is that you are a *loss leader* product. I don't know that it's clear whether *we* are of any value to a tournament so we have to be humble and be appreciative that TDs continue to offer our division. If I were Claring, I would actually consider not offering pro divisions at Iowa Tour tournaments. I've been in the business and I can assure you that a TD would much rather have the 840 rated player than you at their tournaments, and it's very simple as to why. They are more profitable and much less of a headache. I believe pros are of zero value to a tournament.

Where you and I agree completely is that the pdga has butchered the tournament model. I think what they've done with the amateur divisions has ruined the game completely and has put us at least 10 years behind where we should be and it's probably counter-productive to the health of the pro divisions. It's probably to the point where the pdga has a conflict of interest with pro disc golfers and thus should not be considered the *pdga*. If only I could be in charge.
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Re: PDGA?

Postby Steady 26542 » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:51 pm

Clue wrote:
AO wrote: Where you and I agree completely is that the pdga has butchered the tournament model. I think what they've done with the amateur divisions has ruined the game completely


I've only been playing tourneys for 2-3 years now. Could you explain what you mean by how the PDGA tournament model has been butchered, along with how they've ruined the AM divisions. I'm not privy to these things. Thanks.
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Postby Chase20460 » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:40 pm

I could be off base, but I think what Clues reffering to is the way Ams have no need to raise thier game to compete on a higher level. Whats the point? Mediocre Am players are enjoying huge fields and decent payouts, not to mention the player packages, for in some cases half the amount it costs to play Pro. Back in the day ( before I came along ) Am players didnt get fat stacks of plastic, in fact, they rarely got much more than a few discs and a trophy. If you expected to be compensated in any way, it was to move up and play against pros.

Around 2000, or so, I think, they adjusted pay charts for Am players so that the payout qas 100% in product. It was done, IMO, to make sure vendors would run events, and profit. It also was a great way for TDs to make sure thier events would be successful as more and more Ams started playing events with the hopes of fat plastic payouts. The most bitching is done by players who missed that mark early or late, and the people that still hear former Ams talking about it and are pissy its not happening to them. Instead, the PDGA is forcing players packs and smaller payouts to offset the money put in or paid out by a TD.

For the most part, Shanes post is correct. Pros really dont bring much to the table but complaints about the payout, field, course, ect. In the future, as Pro numbers rise due to more sponsorship and money coming in from outside sources, I think you may see a "House take" that will come out of Pro entry fees. Example: Whats the matter with a TD taking in a few hundred dollars from added cash if its a Pro event? Well, the Pros immediately become Math Whizs and deduct the money and call it unfair, as it could have paid the 10th spot or made the winners purse slightly higher, so in other words Pros wont go for it. They will complain about it, even when playing for a 2k purse. How can you expect a person to spend the weekend running an event for nothing? Its alot of stress and hard work. For me, Im probably giving up a chance at money. ( small, I know, but still a chance. ) Im also in a different boat than most, as Ill do it for the future, as it will help my business down the road.
As Shane pointed out, right now, its Ams that make and break a tournament. If no Ams show, the TD is out of alot of sales. The Pros may spend a small amount of money, but FAR less than waht a strong Am field is going to spend. And that doesnt include pay-out. Until there are as many Pros as Ams, the ball is in the Pros court to Pre-Reg, and when the numbers are more equal, then you will see a pattern similar to the IOS Series where each play on different days. Which, doesnt really matter as the ADV field still dwarfs the Pro field, which almost got us shut out at Crystal Lake. What was said after? Shouldve Pre-Reg. If the on-line option is not available, then its crappy, but TDs know Ams will show early in the A.M. or send ahead.

I do feel the time is coming when Pro events will be about a large tour and smaller events will have smaller Pro fields. Top level Pros will spend thier summer hitting different Super Tours every week, and mediocre Pros will hit smaller events and actually be able to continue playing as often as they like. This is where a Pro becomes more useful to the TD than the Ams, as they can showcase touring Pros to help boost attendance. The Ams will show either way, but I do beleive in the "superstar" and that they can bring in numbers with them. But...until theres alot more money in disc golf and incentives to run Pro only events, you will continue to ride backseat to Ams at most events. I try to offer enough cash that its worth it for Pros to show-up, but also hope for a huge Am field, as that pays the bills.
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PDGA?

Postby AO » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:23 pm

Shane,
I don't know what you are waiting for. I posted this knowing it was going to get a reaction. I am not trying to set people off, just pointing out how I feel. Do I not have that right? Of what I wrote what issue did you read that you have not heard before? All caliber of players talk about this stuff during these events. I guess I decided to write what others have said. By the way this did not just include all Iowa Tour events. If you go to the DSM forum on the DSM Challenge you can find plenty of issues that I heard during the event and read about afterward. Some of Iowa's events have been done very well this year. Also, I chose to pick Legion of Doom because of the way Doug runs his events. He does a wonderful job and personally think it is the best "C" tier I have been to. By the way, you were selective on what you chose to "rip on" me about. Why did you not speak of club issues, turning people away, or mixing groups. And how did you know if I tried to pre-register? I called to register but it was first come first serve at Madrid, which was a great time and a fun event. Finally, I do not bitch about the field or course and what I have to say is reasonably fair.

And Jeremy, you can kiss off! Almost everytime you post something you get 1-2 pages of burns.
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Postby shane » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:13 pm

Adam, I didn't rip on you for those reasons simply because I got bored. Thats more typing then I do in a week.

I was waiting for your response.

Of course you have that right, I'm not sure I said you didn't.

Snail mail is an option for pre registation and greatly appreciated by most td's.

Finally I'm just saying a lot of people put a lot of hard work into tourneys and if you have a problem with a tourney or a couple of tourneys you shouldn't lump them with all of Iowa's tourneys.
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PDGA?

Postby AO » Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:43 am

That's fair. I was just worked up about several things and it poured out into writing. And I understand that TD's have a diffucult job. I have watched many work and have spoken to other TD's about the duties of being a TD. See you in Waterloo and/or DSM.
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