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Postby Buzzznation » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:19 pm

Homers, Homers, Homers. That is what revitalized baseball with the McGwire/ Sosa race. That is what sells tickets. That is what the media spotlights. That is what has led a lot of players to using. To hit the ball further. It's too bad really, because there is so much more to the game, and there is more reputable milestones in the game IMO. It was so great to see a little guy like Padroia win the MVP last year with lesser power numbers than the norm. This is a lot of the reason they let this stuff slide. Less illegal substances means less home runs, which means less ticket sales. It's sad but true.
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Postby The Donator » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:35 pm

Chase20460 wrote:I hope Jeter doesnt come out on the list, because he has those old numbers, and really, if he didnt play for the Yankees and wasnt Mr. Clutch, I dont think he would be half the player he is. His numbers just arent good enough, and are surely also the benefit of the line-ups hes been apart of.

He wont. He is the most legit player baseball has. Otherwise this whole statement is incorrect.
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Postby RedBird88 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:55 pm

Actually Chase, in your attempt to discredit my comments on the drug issues facing both baseball and disc golf, the way you stated your arguments you have actually helped prove my points! First baseball and A-Rod. I think everyone agrees that money is the deciding factor for not punishing A-Rod, whether it’s from the money he draws into the sport, or the influence his teams owner wields because of his money. My comments were more about whether that makes it right or not. I stand by my “not” vote and gave my reasons.

Now for my comments on the issue of smoking illegal drugs in disc golf and it’s effect on the IMAGE of our sport. I agree with you and everyone else who have commented that this issue isn’t the only one facing our sport, and I also agree that it probably isn’t the biggest issue that needs to be dealt with in order to help the game become more mainstream. I didn’t say I thought it was. My point was that just because it isn’t the biggest issue doesn’t take a way from the fact that, much like the steroid issue in baseball, it isn’t being dealt with and is having a negative impact on how people on the outside looking in view our sport. You made the point that the steroids issue hasn’t hurt the amount of money baseball brings in, and that may be true, but you must remember that baseball isn’t in the same position as disc golf. Baseball was already very well established and very lucrative long before the steroids issue came about, so it’s much easier for it to handle some adversity. People already have engrained in them years of allegiance to individual teams and players. Disc golf doesn’t have that, it's still fighting for credibility and any negative image adds to the difficulty of breaking into the more mainstream markets, be it tv, larger sponsors, ect. I don’t believe that disc golf is a “joke” to most people, I simply believe that at some point it will have to deal with the image many people have of the game.

You also make comments about going to tourneys and finding PDGA officials “doing their own experiments”. Your example goes a long way toward proving my point! I’m not going to get into the quality of the work the Officials do, thats not my concern here, but if people not associated with the sport associate that “activity” with disc golf as a result, then it hurts the image of the sport and can make it more difficult to reach a wider audience. You say "If pot in disc golf is one thing, its a detractor of motivation, and for that the sport suffers". Thanks for again helping me prove my point that if we want to take the sport to another level, this issue will eventually have to be dealt with at all levels, not only with the everyday players.

As for your responses to my point that discussions of drug use on forums such as this one help continue the stereotype of disc golfers. You say that I chose that example because it suits my point of view. Yes, it’s a great example of my point of view! It doesn’t matter where the information came from, why it was being given or whether I can find it anywhere else. My point is that it is talked about on a forum for DISC GOLF, and that anyone who reads it knows they read it on a disc golf fourm. If someone wants that info they can go find it in many places on the internet, but if someone wants to read about disc golf and finds it here, that would add to the stereotype of the sport for that person. And let me clarify something, I’m not saying anything against this forum, the people who run it or the people who use it. This forum allows people the freedom to speak their minds on many subjects, that’s why I’m on it and why its used by so many others.My only point is that when information of that kind is on a disc golf forum, it is linked to disc golf by the reader.

One last thing: does the fact that pot is illegal make it different that alcohol. Like it or not, absolutely yes. Whether a person believes it should be legal, or equates getting busted for having it to getting a parking ticket doesn't matter. What does matter is that when you are trying to sell something (disc golf) to other people image is everything, and just because a player doesn't think it's a big deal a potential sponsor could. And on the issue of why cops don't stake out more tournaments. I don't know the answer to that. They don't call me and ask me how to do their job, but if they did bust someone at a tourney or league they could because it's illegal, and that certainly wouldn't dispell the current image many people have of the sport.

Anyway, Ive run out of interest in this subject, but my points are still very valid. At some point, in order to make this sport into a large scale, viable, money making interest the image of the sport will have to be addressed. Yes there are many other things that need work too, but that wasn’t the subject of my comments. No, I don’t smoke, and I don’t have anything against those who do despite what you might think. I do believe however, that the issue will have to be dealt with at some point in order to change the image the sport has to many people. Every major sport from football, golf, Nascar, and yes even baseball when they choose to follow them, have very specific drug policies and rules that have gone a long way to creating a positive image for those sports.
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Postby Clue » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:40 pm

There are 3 issues that are so misunderstood when discussing this subject. Most of you are aware of them, but do not keep them in perspective or understand them well enough.

1. Steroids are not about improving skills. They help with recovery. Anybody who knows about lifting or working out knows that you alternate what you work on (legs and abs one day, arms and chest the next). You are supposed to rest every other day. Steroids made it such that there was no recovery time so players on them could play and lift every day and feel great again at the game the next day. If I played 2 rounds of West Lake and then went home and lifted for an hour (let's pretend I'm capable of lifting something for an hour), how do you think I'm going to play the next day? Guys who normally hit 25 jacks a year now are hitting 40-50 because they don't have bad days.

2. It's not the player's fault. There was too much money at stake, and these guys would be idiots not to do it. This is Bud Selig's fault exclusively. Everyone knew what was going on, but everyone buried their head in the sand because they were caught up in the excitement and the revenue. Even several media members say they did the sport a disservice by not pushing the issue in the media. All the reporters knew what was going on as well. But ultimately the integrity of the sport is the responsibility of the sport itself and that means Bud and the owners. They can't catch everyone and there's no way to firmly delineate numbers, so they should have to eat their own disaster and embrace the numbers. The case I always use is Eric Gagne. He's a guy that nobody ever brings up that holds a storied saves record and was clearly on the juice.

3. Steroids are not necessarily bad. Steroids have done wonders in the field of medicine. It's unfortunate they are being abused. They fall into the same category as alcohol. A glass of wine at dinner can be good for you whereas abusing it will be very bad for you.
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Postby Clue » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:43 pm

On a side note with A-Rod in particular, he got screwed. I'm surprised there hasn't been legal action for defamation of character over this leak. I hold baseball responsible for anything that happens in it, thus A-Rod is obviously ultimately responsible for his actions as well, but he was guaranteed like everyone else that names would be kept confidential. Baseball should be liable for the leak.
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Postby GDL17921 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:47 am

Good post Clue, and I agree with most of it with the exception of putting all or most of the blame on Bud. It should rest with the player's union. Bud tried to get drug testing installed back in the 90's, the player's union fought and fought against it and the strike ensued. The union has player representative, one big name that comes to mind that stood by and did nothing to stand up for clean players. Tom Glavine. Shame on him and all the players that thought protecting a few cheaters would be better for the majority of the players, who probably weren't using.
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Postby GDL17921 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:49 am

Clue wrote:On a side note with A-Rod in particular, he got screwed. I'm surprised there hasn't been legal action for defamation of character over this leak. I hold baseball responsible for anything that happens in it, thus A-Rod is obviously ultimately responsible for his actions as well, but he was guaranteed like everyone else that names would be kept confidential. Baseball should be liable for the leak.

The leak was a federal investigation and seizure of property. I agree though, he should sue baseball for promising that it was a confidential test, and then hanging on to the results.....why did they do that? That one totally confuses me.
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Postby Chase20460 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:04 pm

I never said your points werent valid, Joe. Just because I may not agree with them doesnt make them not valid. Stop thinking everything I say is to try to discredit anything your saying, its not. Its not an attack or attempt to do anything except question what was there because I read it on a public forum, and I disagreed. I didnt think this was a non-posting website, as you posted in response to something someone else said. As far as Disc Golf Vs. Marijuana, I think its a waste of time, as I am sure there are things that I say you think arent top priority.

Want it to be real simple? Lead the charge of a whole season ban on people caught using grass at or during tourneys. Obviously, not enough people give a shit about the law, so make a stand to the PDGA that you want to see this done, I mean you are a paid member of the PDGA are you not? Its your right to ask for that and I would support it, as Im sure several others on here would. I dont think its a rule people will enforce anymore than they do now, but if it will get people past the issue, Im all for it.
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