What's Bugging Clue

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Postby SpikeHyzer » Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:49 am

Clue wrote:
Discwrangler wrote:So, Clue, what's bugging you? There has to be something.

I don't even know where to start. Maybe something will stand out on Saturday.


I put down some cash on his putting come Saturday :D
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Postby AO » Tue May 10, 2011 10:47 pm

Here's something that came up last weekend.

This is a Doubles Event

Player A throws from his shot on accident and thinking his shot was the best shot. He did not know where Player B's shot was and just went to his disc and threw. Player B has a better lie and is closer. Player B says he doesn't want to throw from Player A's spot and wants to throw from his lie. What is the call to make here?
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Postby Ferch » Tue May 10, 2011 10:53 pm

Player A's spot is already in play. Suck it up, move on, and chalk it up to poor communication.
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Postby Cydisc » Tue May 10, 2011 11:05 pm

I don't know if the rules specifically state (or if it really matters) that one lie must be chosen in best shot. Obviously, it benefits them to take two from the best lie, but if Player A throws from A's lie, but B's is better, B can still play from B's lie, but A is stuck with his original throw. They aren't gaining an advantage by playing from different lies.
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Postby irban » Tue May 10, 2011 11:59 pm

Cydisc wrote:I don't know if the rules specifically state (or if it really matters) that one lie must be chosen in best shot. Obviously, it benefits them to take two from the best lie, but if Player A throws from A's lie, but B's is better, B can still play from B's lie, but A is stuck with his original throw. They aren't gaining an advantage by playing from different lies.

What? This sounds made up. Not saying you have to play the best shot, but it seems like you both should play the same shot. Sometimes one shot plays to one players strength and one to the other for instance. Seems like part of the game to choose one.

Edit: The PDGA says the following which implies one lie throughout...

"Both players throw from each lie (starting with the tee shot), then the team chooses which of the resulting lies to continue play from, until the hole is completed."
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Postby Clue » Wed May 11, 2011 3:34 am

From the *best shot* section of doubles rules: If the first player throws from the wrong lie, the second player may still throw from the correct lie.

This seems vague to me as the preferred lie doesn't necessarily mean the correct lie. However, everything in my gut tells me that virtually any shot in best shot can be ignored if/when using the other player's throw.

But, clearly too much advantage can be gained by allowing this situation. Let's say a random team, we'll call them Beef/Plague, Beef walks up to his disc and putts without consulting Plague and misses. Plague then wants to putt from his throw. Whether he makes or miss is irrelevant. What if Leaf...errr....I mean Beef made his putt and Plague was clearly 15 feet closer. They're not going to take that resulting throw?

I think it's willful intent to circumvent the rules, however I don't know what rule they're circumventing. I may have to write some new rules and submit them...or read a little more. It is almost 4am after all and Numbers is on.
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Postby The Donator » Wed May 11, 2011 6:16 am

Clue wrote:From the *best shot* section of doubles rules: If the first player throws from the wrong lie, the second player may still throw from the correct lie.

Is this seriously correct? Atrocious if so. Just get a lefty partner and play from all over the place, "on accident."
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Postby shane » Wed May 11, 2011 7:20 am

Clue wrote:From the *best shot* section of doubles rules: If the first player throws from the wrong lie, the second player may still throw from the correct lie.


"Throwing from the wrong lie" isn't that the other teams shot. I believe that's what the intention was.
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Postby AO » Wed May 11, 2011 8:13 am

My response was....A established a lie and so B had to follow. I've NEVER EVER seen two guys throw from two different places in best shot dubs. And guys are always telling their partner to not pick up their disc and to check out the others shot. It was clearly a mistake and too bad it happened. Clue, is there anyway you can get an official ruling on this?
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Postby SARG27044 » Wed May 11, 2011 8:23 am

Thats how Ive always thought dubs was supposed to play...Would one person putting from a disc, missing, then the next person mark that disc and putt from that be under the same rule? Its not a huge diff, but it is a diff lie IMO
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Postby Single L » Wed May 11, 2011 8:36 am

The Donator wrote:
Clue wrote:From the *best shot* section of doubles rules: If the first player throws from the wrong lie, the second player may still throw from the correct lie.

Is this seriously correct? Atrocious if so. Just get a lefty partner and play from all over the place, "on accident."


"Handedness" has nothing to do with this. What you are leaning towards is potentially playing two shots that favor both players.

Lets say Players A's disc lands in the shule and the only real option is a thumber. Lets say Player B's Shot also lands in the shule and only has forehand shot and is a marginally closer to the pin. Player A goes up and throws not knowing where player B's disc is. Play A feels his lie is closer to the pin and that he also doesn't have a thumber so he's going to throw from his lie, and he has a great forehand throw. It should be noted that Player A cannot throw forehand to save his life.

Part of the skill in best shot is not always going with the closest shot but the shoot that has the highest probability of success. I had a couple of situations this weekend where Shaq's shot favored a shot one of us wanted to throw and where my shot favored a shot the other wanted to throw. We had to quickly weigh the odds and pick one of them, not both. Essentially this what could have been perceived to have happened when a player "accidentally" played the wrong disc.

I think the rule should be written to say "In best shot - once a disc is thrown by one of the players on the team that is the lie to be used, regardless if it is technically the best shot or not."

Currently the rules are too vauge and really this line to subjective "If the first player throws from the wrong lie, the second player may still throw from the correct lie."

Who and what defines the correct lie? I see teams all the time play from the wrong lie (IMO) all the time, they'll go from the shot that is the closest even though for their skill set it has a lower probability of success. So technically aren't they playing worst shot and are incorrectly playing the hole, and by doing such should be penalized?? I know that's a little extreme, but one could go there if they wanted to; it just proves how vague and subjective the rules are.
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Postby irban » Wed May 11, 2011 9:31 am

shane wrote:
Clue wrote:From the *best shot* section of doubles rules: If the first player throws from the wrong lie, the second player may still throw from the correct lie.


"Throwing from the wrong lie" isn't that the other teams shot. I believe that's what the intention was.

That's how I read it too, since they are talking about that in the previous bullet.
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Postby irban » Wed May 11, 2011 9:37 am

Single L wrote:...really this line to subjective "If the first player throws from the wrong lie, the second player may still throw from the correct lie."

No it isn't. Wrong lie can't possibly mean the one they didn't want to take. It has to be referring to a shot that violates the rules, either accidently using the other teams lie, or throwing from OB maybe. If they wanted to state that the second player has the option of playing his shot if they didn't confer before the first shot, I'm sure they would use different verbiage.
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Postby Cydisc » Wed May 11, 2011 11:20 am

AO wrote:My response was....A established a lie and so B had to follow. I've NEVER EVER seen two guys throw from two different places in best shot dubs. And guys are always telling their partner to not pick up their disc and to check out the others shot. It was clearly a mistake and too bad it happened. Clue, is there anyway you can get an official ruling on this?


They are waiting to pick up because they are establishing the best lie, because once you pick up, that lie is forfeited. Not really the same situation as this one.

I've had a partner absent-mindedly putt a 25-footer when I was parked, so the situation does come up now and then.

At any rate, there really isn't any concrete rule for the format, so however you call it, as the TD, is the correct way.
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Postby IHearChains » Wed May 11, 2011 11:22 am

SARG27044 wrote:Thats how Ive always thought dubs was supposed to play...Would one person putting from a disc, missing, then the next person mark that disc and putt from that be under the same rule? Its not a huge diff, but it is a diff lie IMO



I thought I read somewhere that is illegal, that if the first person putts from the disc the second player is not allowed to mark it and putt from the mini.
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