Ruling question

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Postby GDL17921 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:34 pm

Chap, I think there's two different scenarios from Saturday being discussed here. The one Claring started the thread about........which I would agree with you.

Then there's the case of this guy who flat out pencil whipped, got caught by Rusty, who immediately called him on it, as he requested to see the score card due to it seeming a bit odd that he wasn't facing anybody when he took scores. So this guy says, I got a 4. And writes down a 3. Gets caught by Rusty, and then he changes the three to a three......and gets caught again......and then did it again!!!....and gets caught again.

The third time the guy says to Rusty, "why don't you just call me a cheater to my face then?"

Rusty obliged, from about .2 inches. I don't think he was scuurrred.

I'm not going to name the name, ya'll will know soon enough I'm sure.
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Postby irban » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:39 pm

These are why announcing scores to the group is so important.

1) Scorer just assumes- He may not know, and is not responsible for knowing everyones score.

2) Scorer quietly asks each - The rest of the card doesn't have the opportunity to weigh in when the player either forgets a stroke, or intentionally mis-states it.

3) Scorer announcing his own score helps to catch people who are cheating. What Clue said about someone saying one thing, but writing down another has happened to me before. If he isn't saying it out loud, there is no proof that he didn't intend to cheat. He may have just forgot a stroke.

I do it even in a semi-casual round, whenever there is a scorecard. I have spaced off strokes myself, and don't mind being reminded. Sometimes I even space off in the wrong direction, and really don't mind being reminded. It really pisses me off when someone doesn't call them out, because then I have to ask what score they gave me, or check it when I get the card.
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Postby chappyfade » Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:55 pm

GDL4000 wrote:Chap, I think there's two different scenarios from Saturday being discussed here. The one Claring started the thread about........which I would agree with you.


That's why I tried to limit my ruling to what Claring discussed. Sounds like there were other issues at work in what really happened, and if I were TD, I'd want to hear everything. Although, Rusty's word would go pretty far with me.

I'm starting to suggest to people to keep their own scorecard, with everyone's name on it. I've started to do it myself on occasions, if I don't the folks involved really well. I've seen Des and other top pros do the same thing...it CAN avoid problems later on.

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Postby irban » Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:22 pm

chappyfade wrote: Rusty's word would go pretty far with me.

You fool.
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same instance

Postby dirtyj » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:27 pm

I also had what Claring is talking about happen to me in my very first sanctioned event. It started when the one guy said he got a 4 on a hole and I knew he had taken a 5. I questioned him and he got a little crappy with me about it so the 4 stuck.(no group support basically no one was payin attention) Three holes latter he did the same thing but I recapped his awful shots and the group at this point agreed that yes he did get a 5 and not the 4 he claimed. I am quite sure he did this three times during one round. The first time I wasnt sure but it made me watch and the second time i called him out and he got testy so the third time when he argued I recapped it and won the argument. Now if there is no penalty for this what keeps jack offs like this from continuing these actions. My next question is what would happen to me if I had treated the dude like a punching bag for a hole or maybe two.
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Re: same instance

Postby Cydisc » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:35 pm

dirtyj wrote:My next question is what would happen to me if I had treated the dude like a punching bag for a hole or maybe two.


Depends on if the other guys pay attention.

What's really effective is when word gets out that the guy is a pencil whipper. People will start looking closer at him and he'll either straighten up or quit playing tournaments.
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Postby Conrad 37988 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:14 pm

F it dirtyj call em out right now.
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cheaters

Postby dirtyj » Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:02 pm

Cy disc is probably giving the best advice here let the group shun him and not just me. I hate to call him out but it was at the Osky challenge that this happend and yes it was the guy that beat me. It was only the rec division but still pisses a guy off. I also think that keeping your own scorecard for everyone is a very good idea, only problem with that im too lazy to probably follow through.
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Postby irban » Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:52 pm

I bring it up every time I think the score is wrong. Usually it is a mistake anyway, rather than intentional cheating. If I know I'm right, I'm not backing down either; always walk them through the shots. This guy must have brass nuts verging on sociopathic to argue and get pissy like that. Probably part of his game plan.
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Postby Clue » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:14 pm

irban wrote:I bring it up every time I think the score is wrong. Usually it is a mistake anyway, rather than intentional cheating. If I know I'm right, I'm not backing down either; always walk them through the shots. This guy must have brass nuts verging on sociopathic to argue and get pissy like that. Probably part of his game plan.

In 15 years I might have called out the wrong score once. Twice in a round would be completely inexcusable. And it's obvious when somebody makes a mistake. It's even easier to tell when it's not a mistake.
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cheaters

Postby dirtyj » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:45 pm

So Clue how should I handle myself if ever put in this situation again. I guess I wasnt ready for these kind of actions. The guys I play with we may play competitively sometimes like for whos buying beer or something and generaly we have no score card. In all these times I seem to lose but yet never feel as though I got cheated. So i buy the beer and move on. This is what I expected at the tourney. Basically what im saying, all my other expieriences with other disc players honesty seems to be one trait that most everyone seems to uphold.
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Re: cheaters

Postby Clue » Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:57 pm

dirtyj wrote:So Clue how should I handle myself if ever put in this situation again.

Most people don't like conflict. I'm not necessarily one of those people. The first time it happens, I'd just try to confirm the score with the player and the rest of the group. The second offense I'd be very clear that he's bordering on cheating and thus disqualification. The second there is any confrontation I would just get the TD or an official (grab the nearest pro player) and let them handle it. If there is somebody in particular that continues to be a problem, let me know. I'm on the PDGA disciplinary committee and would be happy to write a formal complaint and the player can be put under review.
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Re: cheaters

Postby claring » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:12 pm

Clue wrote:
dirtyj wrote:So Clue how should I handle myself if ever put in this situation again.

Most people don't like conflict. I'm not necessarily one of those people. REALLY? :shock: :shock:
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Postby shane » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:20 pm

I spit out the wrong score all of the time. I'm not trying to cheat I'm just a crack head. You can tell when someones cheat'n. Just bash their head into a tree. Okay just walk the throws back with them and if you do that and they still argue then bash their head into a tree, but just in Osky.
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Postby dirtyj » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:07 pm

So Shane its different in Osky?
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