Mensuration

Post questions and comments to Justin McLuen the Iowa State Coordinator

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Re: Mensuration

Postby Clue » Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:48 pm

GDL17921 wrote:
claring wrote:
GDL17921 wrote:Here's some mensuration for you Clue - how far is it from Newton to Mt. Pleasant?

about 120miles

You're not the state coordinator. I want to address the issue with somebody that can actually do something about it. I mean, we elect a SC for something, right?

Now, that being said, if they're within the PDGA set limits, the limits need to be increased. These are the types of issues I would like to see addressed with the PDGA. The PDGA has decreased (all in the name of collecting fees) the mileage limits to where they're practically irrelevant. Second, IMO, the State Coordinator should have the power to get an event UN-sanctioned if somebody chooses to not go through the proper chanels like EVERYBODY else does.

1. I am directed by the PDGA to represent their interests and simply help coordinate according to their directives. It's clear that they don't care about the individual success of tournaments, but would rather have several tournaments which would maximize the total number of players playing as well as increase overall sanctioning money. Their budget is dependent on this system and there's likely no way they would ever sacrifice short term money for long term success of the tournament model.
2. As I stated before, I do not feel comfortable infringing on someone else's business. If you owned Proflight and I told you couldn't do Newton because Mt Pleasant was a higher tiered tournament I'm guessing you'd be furious. As much as I'd love to do something, there's really very little I can do. However, I am not against trying. If you have suggestions I'm all ears. Believe me when I say I've thought of many things to consolidate tournament fields and it's just too hard.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby GDL17921 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:35 am

Clue wrote: it's just too hard.


this is a statement that shouldn't even be uttered by a good leader.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby tufluk » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:47 am

With gas at $3.75 a gallon, driving an additional amount of mileage to a tourney might be a problem for some, money wise. I wonder what a guy living 30 miles west of Newton would say about having no Newton, and a drive to Mt. Pleasant. 300 miles (150 X 2) @ 20 MPG = 15 gallons X 3.75 = $56.75. That's a lot of cash. Not counting the additional time out of his day for the drive. Don't have a dog in this hunt, but there's always a different take.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby grodney » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:03 am

tufluk wrote:With gas at $3.75 a gallon, driving an additional amount of mileage to a tourney might be a problem for some, money wise. I wonder what a guy living 30 miles west of Newton would say about having no Newton, and a drive to Mt. Pleasant. 300 miles (150 X 2) @ 20 MPG = 15 gallons X 3.75 = $56.75. That's a lot of cash. Not counting the additional time out of his day for the drive. Don't have a dog in this hunt, but there's always a different take.


1. Current DSM gas prices are plentiful in the $3.19 to $3.42 range. Certainly nowhere near $3.75. Quad Cities are even lower and more plentiful: http://www.quadcitiesgasprices.com/

2. 20mpg highway? Get a better vehicle.

3. Waaaahhhhhhh! Can't afford it? Don't play.

Not that I expect anything different from you.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby tufluk » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:16 am

GDL17921 wrote:
Clue wrote: it's just too hard.


this is a statement that shouldn't even be uttered by a good leader.



Just a personal observation from a guy who has been an officer in a club, and does some volunteer work occasionally.

My dad had a saying, "A man who does nothing, does nothing wrong". A person who takes a job trying to improve a park/sport/organization for no pay should not receive public criticism unless there is a belief that malfeasance is involved. It is one thing to discuss PDGA policy in theory, it's another to address an individual.

Ask a man to try and solve a problem that is guaranteed to consume a large amount of his personal time when he knows any solution is going to leave someone unhappy? For free? IDK.

I'm sure that if a person was being paid top-dollar for as long as a task might take to solve a problem, "it's just too hard" might not be a response.

If one thinks that a volunteer is not being a good leader, there is always an opportunity to take that job upon one's self. Trying to solve problems for free is not as glamorous as it appears. Sometimes those that do nothing wrong find fault with you.

This just my personal take, and applies to any situation involving volunteers.

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Re: Mensuration

Postby tufluk » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:26 am

grodney wrote:
tufluk wrote:With gas at $3.75 a gallon, driving an additional amount of mileage to a tourney might be a problem for some, money wise. I wonder what a guy living 30 miles west of Newton would say about having no Newton, and a drive to Mt. Pleasant. 300 miles (150 X 2) @ 20 MPG = 15 gallons X 3.75 = $56.75. That's a lot of cash. Not counting the additional time out of his day for the drive. Don't have a dog in this hunt, but there's always a different take.


1. Current DSM gas prices are plentiful in the $3.19 to $3.42 range. Certainly nowhere near $3.75. Quad Cities are even lower and more plentiful: http://www.quadcitiesgasprices.com/

2. 20mpg highway? Get a better vehicle.

3. Waaaahhhhhhh! Can't afford it? Don't play.

Not that I expect anything different from you.


Totally asinine.
Get a better vehicle? Can't afford it, don't play. Seems like the bourgeois doesn't want the proletariat playing on the links with him.
I'm sure exclusion is the policy of the PDGA.

Only a rich guy would say that gas at $3.42 is "nowhere near" $3.75. And I'm SURE it will NEVER get to $3.75 again.

I certainly can afford to go to any tourney, any where. But I play with a ton of young guys juggling bills, family expenses, and disc golf. $50 or $40 in additional gas is a big deal.

Your rationality is becoming clouded by hatred for someone you've never even met. Odd.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby GDL17921 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:04 am

Gene, I'm not criticizing Clue, I'm challenging him. We serve on the DSMDG Club board together and have a relationship good enough that we expect that of one another. The bigger piece of this is that the PDGA has basically hung the SC's out to dry with the LACK of power that they give them. I would love for he and other SC's to take these issues to the PDGA with the intent of gaining some kind of empowerment in order to make changes in saturated markets without disrupting the PDGA budgetary objectives. I'm happy that (SC power) was addressed in the PDGA survey - I voiced my opinion.

As far as volunteer work, I got my first taste when the original Camden went in - back when the Village of Milan thought disc golf would just be a fad! I moved to Des Moines in 2005, and since have volunteered my time by serving on the club's board since about 2007. I played the DSM Challenge for the first time this year since 2006, due to helping run it - which I still did this year. I make it to every work day that I can around here preparing our courses for you to enjoy. I have volunteered my time to come to the QC to help Chase (my sponsor) run the Rumble in the past.

But to be honest, I don't think that I really even needed to bust out my volunteer resume to justify my position. I'm presenting real issues that I see in the tournament scene - and how IMO competitive events have been compromised due to the amount and locale of events in our market (Iowa). It might not be the most popular view, but it's mine, and I'll own it. Flame away as you will. Good ideas flow from constructive criticism.

As far as me running for SC - don't think I'm not considering it. But I absolutely won't do it until the position is empowered by the PDGA to make differences. Because right now, as far as I'm concerned, the position is nothing more than an excuse to give somebody a ticket to USDGC.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby Buzzz Killington » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:05 am

"It's just too hard" is why he made this post...I imagine. Looking for new ideas and current reflections. Gas in Iowa City, low of $3.54, high of $3.67. Gene's point remains. I know you HATE Shaw, but I can tell you he could care less. He is not consumed with the semantics, or the antics of one guy acrossed the state. He just wants to play and host in his neck of the woods. I wasn't a huge fan of his when it took him 6 mo to turn in my first membership. Instead of clenching fists, I contacted him twice, the PDGA a few times, got it straightened out, with the added bonus of it being turned in so late that I got a year free. Something bad turned into something good, with patience. Tournaments changing for the worse? Ehh, maybe? I have seen my fields (int and adv) become WAY more competitive in the last 5 years. Criticism of anyones free work is just childish. If you're not part of the solution...and thats not even what we're asking here. Right here, we have identified a problem, and are gathering data, before we hypothesize.
Mensuration = the act/art of measuring. I had to look it up before my first post.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby diskey river » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:58 am

John Shaw consistently raises enough money to host A and B tiers that no one shows up to. Sounds like he does more work to make his tournies payout better for the Pro's than most. Isn't that how this started, not enough guys in the Pro field must mean saturation? Just because John isn't as internet savvy as you all would like him doesn't make him a scapegoat for so called saturation.

Its clear there are many pieces to this puzzle and this problem is unique to Iowa. There is no reason why tournies in Newton and Mt. Pleasant can't be successful on the the same day. Sounds like they both were.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby tufluk » Tue Sep 24, 2013 12:50 pm

I agree with all responses.

Don't know the personalities. Post was not a slam on anyone. Especially lefty.

Only point is: Things on forum tend to get personal. Love the response that the PDGA and most bureaucracies are hard to deal with. I, as a person, try to address issues in theory, and not say anything about a person's performance in a volunteer situation. They always get too much grief, and seldom get enough credit. They never get paid.

If other's operate under a different philosophy, that is their way. If I have a beef with the way the Machine (PDGA) operates, I'll post that here, if I have a beef with a volunteer, I'll PM him. That's my way.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby Buzzz Killington » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:30 am

His tournament didn't sanction itself, so what proper channels are you asking for? Talk to the PDGA about it. They took the bait. Forsook their own rules I guess. IDK, we don't have a say in that. Clue made a good call (IMO) to not cancel Newton, as the PDGA would (IHO) regard it as inferior to a B-tier. I didn't go, I couldn't, that week was a 6 day work week. If I could have I would have chosen Mt. Pleasant because of its proximity, and more people I know went there. I actually like Steve Thirtyacre and try to chat him up when I can. I like Conrad too. Underrated man in my book, gets a bad wrap for being abrasive when actually he's on-point and a good soul. I'm from Johnston, have no qualms about going that way, but pick tournaments according to whatever: maybe I've never played there, or my friends go, or I just have the weekend off and will go anywhere to compete. Also, as I expressed, not a fan of 2 tournaments within hours on the same day. Golf is good March through November, only 5 major brands, can't we get organized here? Going on a rage won't solve anything. Take all that energy and focus it on how to get 5 heads to agree on 1 schedule and you'll have my support. Should we draft for it? Who gets priority on the waiver wire?
Furniss made a good point. Would 104 players have shown to either? I think it'd be more like 62. 10 heads would have traveled the extra D to play. The other 42 would have played a casual round that day. I do agree those 10 people are some of the most competitive and what makes a better tournament overall.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby Clue » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:30 pm

GDL17921 wrote:
Clue wrote: it's just too hard.

this is a statement that shouldn't even be uttered by a good leader.

In no way did I mean I wouldn't do everything I could. What I meant is that the issue is extremely complicated and nearly as divisive as abortion or gay rights.

There are some really difficult fundamental issues at hand, free enterprise vs socialism, perception vs reality. There are going to be several hundred opinions and all or none of them are gonna be right or wrong. I hope to streamline certain things as best I can and improve the quality of events on the whole, but I think we're gonna have to get used to a couple things. 1. The state cannot be run as a whole. There's enough demand for tournaments in multiple areas that there are gonna be multiple events in the state on the same weekends and that may even increase as we move forward. The best thing we can do is hope that each area of the state can cultivate their individual areas enough that events can fill with their own population of players. 2. Different people want very different things out of the game and the tournaments they play. Many players want minimal commitment, local, casual, cheap, while others want uniformity, consolidation, professional. There's no way I'm going to say one is better than the other and tell vendors/TDs what they can or cannot do. The only thing I can do is enforce PDGA guidelines and advise or help pertinent parties to best serve the disc golf community.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby AO » Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:34 pm

http://www.pdga.com/2014-major-and-nt-s ... ons-sought

"The mileage restrictions have been relaxed. A-Tiers must now be 1,250 miles from a PDGA Major, 750 miles from a National Tour Elite Series, and 300 miles from another A-Tier."
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Re: Mensuration

Postby SpikeHyzer » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:17 pm

AO wrote:http://www.pdga.com/2014-major-and-nt-schedule-set-a-tier-submissions-sought

"The mileage restrictions have been relaxed. A-Tiers must now be 1,250 miles from a PDGA Major, 750 miles from a National Tour Elite Series, and 300 miles from another A-Tier."


Not that I get out to many tournaments anymore, but yippee for another year of water-downed competition in the state of Iowa.
The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge, but imagination.
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Re: Mensuration

Postby jjpitt29 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:57 pm

First of, I hope you guys realize how good you have it in Iowa. Very few states are this far ahead of the game in terms of planning and organization. Second that with the way you all do communicate and talk about things to the fact that you have some very smart and awesome people. (Excluding clue, he's smart but a jerk!)

Reading through was pretty interesting. Lots of points that have been brought up since I started playing in '96.

I think there are some answers, but I wonder if those that have the power will have the courage to actually do something. The PDGA wants more and more tournaments. They have and will continue to relax the mileage limits etc to encourage more tournaments. This will not change. But there are things we can do to make it better. The to sanction or not sanction argument has always been a good one. I've been on both sides of this debate. Even if you don't think the pdga does anything for you locally, if you have a pdga sanctioned event it is. Just the insurance alone is a great benefit to tournament directors. Any TD that run's a tournament without insurance is taking a big risk in today's world. Now I wish just as much as the next guy that the pdga would step in and help build more couses and such, but right now that isn't a reality.

1. More tournaments = Bad for pro's, but good for am's. Almost every tournament's largest division's are int and adv. Am's don't usually have the ability or desire to travel long distances. So having more tournaments is good for the am population. It gets more people playing.
However that is the opposite for pro's. Pro's will travel and generally like to travel. Whether it be for new/fun courses, competition, or money. So with more tournaments your pro fields get weaker and smaller. The other big thing that drives down the pro field is burn out. I'm a perfect example. I used to be good :) Through age and having a real life I have gotten worse of the years. I never really developed a good mental game, etc. Therefore I don't play many bigger tournaments anymore because I know I just can't compete.

Solutions - Lower the entry fees and pay out a smaller % of the field. Entry fee's have sky rocketed as a result of wanting a higher payout for those at the top and to pay down farther to try and keep those in the middle encouraged and not losing money. If we lower the entry fee's we will get a bigger turn out instantly. People like me who still would like to play, but can't justify paying 50-100 per tournament would gladly play if it was 20$. (Just an example). You'll get more people playing first of all. Now if we do the right thing and only pay out the top 20% then the payouts at the top would still be well worth it. You would really feel like you won something. For those that don't cash the loss is not nearly as painful and therefore you don't get as upset and burnt out.

Vendor's will still make the same money and getting more people to an event will generally lead to more sales too.

2. Divisions are a mess. You have lots of differing opinions and ideas out there, but I think we can safely agree that they aren't perfect right now.

Solutions - 1. We need a true pro class. In order to be pro you need to maintain a rating about a certain point. (I would say around the 980 mark). Also you should have to do some other things like apply with the PDGA to be a pro and pass a rules test. Our old system of "choosing" to be pro or being declared pro by accepting cash is way out dated. Playing well in a few tournaments to cash is not a basis to be a pro. Being a pro should also be something that has to be renewed every year. Either by and application process to the pdga or something. I don't think it's something that should be grandfathered in from year to year.
(I'm sure you would have a few 1000 rated players choosing to be am's, but so what. If they don't want to be a Pro that is up to them. Being a Pro is something that should be a little harder to attain and maintain. There is no way I should be considered a pro, lol) **(also to be a pro, your pdga fee should be higher then for am's.)**

2. Everyone not a pro is an am. I see no problem with having multiple am divisions. You can seperate some by skill, by age, or what have you.

3. Pro's can only play in B tiers and above. We have plenty of B tiers and higher around for a Pro to make it almost every weekend. Now this probably wouldn't work as well all around the country. But, if this was in play I bet you would see some tournaments striving to be a B tier instead of a C tier. Pro's would end up gathering together more and result in larger fields, payouts, competition, etc. (am's could choose to play up in everything other then NT's if they would like).

4. Pro division is the only one that gets added cash. (Men and women) Masters should still be there and would be the same except that they would not receive the added cash. If a master feels they can compete for that, then they join the "pro" division.


I think we all realize a change in divisions will not be coming anytime soon and there isn't a ton we can do about it other then to not sanction tournaments. But what I think we can do as a start is work on the entry fee's. Start lowering them across the board or really start advertising and promoting a trophy only option for a very low fee.

Just a few random thoughts from an old washed up disc golfer.
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