Greenwood

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Greenwood Park.....What to do?

Go ahead with the nine hole course
9
28%
Pull out, search for other course opportunities at another park
16
50%
Wait, keep trying to persuade the neighbors and environmentalists that the 18 hole setup will work, possibly with another design
7
22%
 
Total votes : 32

Postby Cydisc » Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:59 pm

grodney wrote:Hold an A-Tier!!! Duh!


Quiet, you!
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Postby Latch » Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:50 pm

It seems like we are putting the cart before the horse a bit here, because nothing has been decided by the P&R on the 9 vs. 18 at Greenwood. I'll admit that it was a tough meeting (especially since the negative input was usually directed at me), but we survived it. In talking to a P&R contact yesterday (who fielded many angry calls prior to the meeting), he is still entirely in support of the 18 hole plan. At the Greenwood meeting Don Tripp stated that The Founders Club (environmental concerns for the course) and the DMDGC (let the people play DG and experience the environment) are two of the best park partners/supporters the city has ever worked with. I would like to keep it that way! Our relationship began back in 1996 with the course installation at Grandview and grew at the beautiful Ewing Park (and now Crivaro!). We need to keep our relationship strong, through the good times and the tougher times. Now is not the time to pull the rug out from under our main disc golf partner and co-supporter of this project.

The potential $5000 from the P&R might still be a go if the 18 hole concept is scaled back to 9, but there is no guarantee. I will quickly bring this up if 9 ends up to be the direction we are headed. On another note: Tim and I have been discussing the concept and agree that regardless of the 9 or 18, now is likely a good time to swap the baskets that are in storage with Ewing's. As Jay mentioned (keeps mentioning :)) Ewing is our championship course that deserves the more standard baskets that touring players are used to. Greenwood is going to be fun/challenging, but will never have the same draw as one of the two Premier courses at The World's.

I think that this debate is good and it would be great if people are passionate enough to join the club, begin attending meetings and be involved with shaping the future direction of the club. To date the majority of the club's past accomplishments/pitfalls have been shouldered by a small number of hard working and caring individuals. I strongly encourage you to get involved and help to make a difference. A short list of things that the club continuously needs help with would include: The upcoming Ice Bowl at Grandview, The Challenge, The Open, course maintenance, outreach/training clinics before leagues and at schools and other local events, and especially in the fundraising that supports these initiatives. Every little bit of support helps, with the cumulative effect of creating something big…MORE DISC GOLF FOR EVERYONE! :lol:
Happy Discing!
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Postby Like_Water » Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:51 pm

irban wrote:I would argue that the best thing the Des Moines disc golf club has done with it's money is to put in new courses. In fact it is the only thing I am really interested in donating for anymore.


I'm in favor of NOT putting in new courses until we have a viable system in place to maintain them. We currently have plenty of courses we DONT keep up with. I'm hoping to change that.

The idea that we need to have a higher number of courses then Texas or California is ridiculous.
If it kills, I got news, it ain't a side effect
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Postby daltonoutdoors » Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:44 pm

I am curious if any City leaders or neighbors are reading this forum and would like to encourage the comments to remain positive at least until a decision is made. Unfortunately, comments can be taken as offiical positions from the Club, and they are not. Comments which indicate we have too many courses and changing baskets b/c this will be an inferior course is not the best means of convincing anyone. The City of Des Moines does not have "too many" courses and this will not be an inferior course if it is 18 holes, it is just different than the others.

Having quotes such as those, whether they are taken out of context or not, is going to be their best defense. I have seen biking projects get the boot b/c one biker disagrees with the project--like bike lanes down Ingersoll.

Obviously, our Club needs to boost our environmental resume and make sure we are being as environmentally friendly as possible on every course. We have taken a lot preventative measures and maintenance projects but we should be bragging about them. Or, at least make sure we have that type of ammunition at those meetings, and brag to city leaders (decision makers) about them. We should be putting free ads in the local papers announcing tournaments so people remember our good will when we need it.

This is a good reason for all ya'll to go to the meetings, and get involved and get on the private e-mail list and express your concerns there, rather than here.

Love Always,
Angie
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Postby Cydisc » Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:59 pm

Bike lanes on Ingersoll is a horrible idea.
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Postby shane » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:43 pm

I think they need bike lanes on I-80, that would solve a lot of problems. :wink:
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Postby rightcunnin » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:48 pm

Bike lanes down Ingersoll?
Sounds Grand!
I'm sorry that the middle of my sentence interrupted the beginning of yours.
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Postby 10up » Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:37 am

I haven't chimed in yet, but I'm slightly tipsy now so here goes:

In my considerably more humble opinion than people may think, I say this project has been "botched", for lack of a better word, enough times to call club, or personal involvement a wash. Now by saying that I do not mean I'd like to see funds, time, or money be pulled from to go to. However, it is my understanding that Parks and Rec started the initial conversation on Greenwood with their outrageous design and came to Jon and asked him for his input and the clubs help. Somewhere, in the middle of all of this, the question of lands allocated, neighborhood associations, number of holes, property lines, enviromental impact, and whatever else can possibly be thought of to question, has been analyzed, and subsequently scrutinized. To the point where I say the clubs involvement in this project be absolutely minimal at best.

The Des Moines Disc Golf Club has extremely limited resources, and those resources are better utilized on issues with very little gray area (i.e. Course Maintenance). We've given an 18 hole proposal to Parks and Rec, they are fully aware of our history, they are fully aware of what land we've outlined to use, and they are fully aware of what disc golf does for a park inside of the Des Moines City limits. It is their choice, and their choice alone, to decide whether or not they want to go with that, cut it back to nine, or put the whole project on the shelf. We can take our business elsewhere until then, namely places it already has a purpose being. So when, and if, they want help in the finalizing of a course, we can be more than happy to facilitate them in those needs. But as far as advocating our purpose and use to a small minority of people who want to watch birds 500 feet off of their back porch, we shouldn't waste the time.

Now on the other hand, if Jon decides he wants to make this his own personal mission, more power to him, and I applaud it, and rescind any perceived negativity I've expressed towards the project. But, as far as the club is concerned... they shouldn't be concerned at all. At least, at this venture.
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Postby irban » Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:29 am

Discwrangler wrote:
irban wrote:I would argue that the best thing the Des Moines disc golf club has done with it's money is to put in new courses. In fact it is the only thing I am really interested in donating for anymore.


I'm in favor of NOT putting in new courses until we have a viable system in place to maintain them. We currently have plenty of courses we DONT keep up with. I'm hoping to change that.

The idea that we need to have a higher number of courses then Texas or California is ridiculous.

I am not really advocating more courses per se, I am only saying we should not convert the baskets into money that will just end up in some touring pros pocket or whatever else the club decides to spend it on. Assets in the form of baskets are more likely to benefit the local disc golf community as a whole.

If we come up with a viable course maintenance fund, I am all for that, as long as there is a plan. Of course, if you argue that the park entity should be paying for the baskets, they should be paying for the upkeep as well. Why shouldn't they budget for new tee signs or tee pads to maintain their park resources. Maybe the only club input should be labor, and coordination of efforts.

I do think that one more centrally located, technical course like Greenwood is in order for the area, and if it takes donating the 18 baskets to do it, so be it.
~~~- ¥
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Postby johnemus » Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:08 pm

irban wrote:
Discwrangler wrote:Then, we should sell the baskets we have to the next city wishing to put in a course. Why do we have to foot the bill?

While I agree it is best to get the courses paid for by the city or whoever, I don't know what else we would do with the money that would benefit as many people as a new course. Unless you use it for course maintenance or something.

I would argue that the best thing the Des Moines disc golf club has done with it's money is to put in new courses. In fact it is the only thing I am really interested in donating for anymore.


With the 9 spare baskets, Carlisle is looking to add a 9 hole course and make it as cheap as possible....
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Postby daltonoutdoors » Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:42 am

cydisc11895 wrote:Bike lanes on Ingersoll is a horrible idea.


That the same mentality we are getting from the neighbors for Greenwood. They don't know anything about it but are vocal. Their point--they just don't want it--no other reason. They have never played around of disc golf or even visited a course to see if Grandview or Ewing are walkable, viable, community parks. If they would simply walk those two areas they would discover how they work in concert with the other amenities, it does not ruin the environment, and having some foot traffic is a pleasant experience.

Obviously, you can never convince a neighbor that they should have more foot traffic in their back yard whether it's currently a community park or not. They think it threatens their lifestyle and property value. How do you blame them, except for lack of knowledge.

SK--the other argument is to have wide outside lanes. If neither bike lanes nor wide outside lanes are provided I am happy to take the whole lane (Grand and Ingersoll). As soon as all the vehicles switch to the other lane someone is going want to turn left. Communities with some planning and consideration for bicycle and pedestrian traffic are creating communities and where people want to be. The net effect is an increase in revenues for the entire area.

I have had my share of confrontations on the road while taking the whole lane, its not a pleasant experience... meanwhile the community is missing an opportunity. You can lead a horse to water.

Ang
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Postby 10up » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:38 pm

isn't Woodland kind of Ingersoll's bike lane?
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Postby Red » Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:27 pm

Those who are expecting the project to fail will read what they want into the community response we have received. I don't think it is a failure. All I can say is that I was there and I heard the comments. Though some were completely against, the majority of voices were reasonable. I think we can still work it out and maybe even get an 18-hole course. Disc golf is a fact of life for DSM and we can either establish an antagonistic relationship with our communities or a mutually respectful one.

The main concerns we heard were environmental impact (i.e. damage to unique flora and fauna, oak wilt, soil erosion, etc.) and proximity to property. Both of these are issues we NEED to address in course design. As much as I like disc golf, I still wouldn't want one that destroys the natural environment or threatens my property (i.e. discs whacking my house or my cat). And sneaking behind backs, especially rich backs, by thrusting a course in "their back yards" is not a good way to get the support we need.

Also, I'd like to point out that the four Club representatives who were at the meeting (Jon, Tim, Amanda and Angie) all are in aggreement that a 9-hole is still VERY workable. We also discussed that this could be a great opportunity for the Club to work with national designers and get a "showcase" course of environmentally-friendly, visually-pleasing course. This is NOT a unique problem for our area. I have already contacted folks in MN who had the same issues with a course in Apple Valley. No, it may not be an 18-hole course, but who's to say we can't have the best damn 9-hole course in the country? Plus, if we can showcase how we addressed and worked with community concerns, it will make our presence in this park and others a lot more palatable.
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Postby SpikeHyzer » Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:58 am

So...if it were to be only a 9-hole course, would you still want to use some of the baskets that are in storage?
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Postby Red » Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:13 am

Good question. Initially I think that the new baskets should be used at Ewing if we don't get an 18-hole at Greenwood.

On the other hand, if it's a showcase course . . . No, I still think that unless the baskets make a huge difference in the environmental/asthetic quality of the course, the new (storage) ones should go to Ewing and 9 of the Ewing baskets should go to Greenwood.
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